Frome Student Told To Get Off Train Despite Having Valid Ticket

[whole diary]

[Lee]

A Frome student was left fuming and in tears after being told to get off a train more than 40 miles from her destination , despite having a valid ticket for her journey. Hannah Fleming , from Little Keyford , paid her fare in advance using a student rail card and was on the 10.15pm train from Paddington to Bath Spa , the last train home that day (link below.)
http://thisissomerset.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=147472&command=displayContent&sourceNode=242195&contentPK=17993357&folderPk=113662&pNodeId=242222

When the 20-year-old handed her ticket to a rail inspector she was told that because she did not have the rail card with her she would either have to pay the full fare of ^60 or get off the train at the next station.

The University College London student said that when she told the inspector she would have to get off at Swindon and face being stranded alone , she was charged ^45 , prompting her to burst into tears.

It was only thanks to a sympathetic fellow rail passenger who gave her ^20 that she was allowed to continue her journey.

[John R]

But she didn't have a valid ticket. The ticket is only valid if the railcard is carried as well.

I can't see the problem with this. If I forget my season ticket I don't expect the ticket inspector to let me travel without a ticket. And I wouldn't get much sympathy either. But use words like "student" and " 20 year old" and suddenly everything's different. Why? 20 year old's are quite mature enough to look after themselves, and to travel with adequate means of payment on such a journey.

As a commuter I despise a lot of what FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (and the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)) have done to our franchise, but in this case they were just following the rules that exist to ensure appropriate revenue protection.    

[Jim]

If you don't have a valid ticket, you have no RIGHT to travel, the ticket was not valid as they didn't have the railcard! HOWEVER you MUST use your discretion, so it was wrong IMO^▸ (in my opinion) in this instance to chargethe FULL amount, but she has NO RIGHT to want to get it waived completly

[grahame]

None of us was there on the train to know exactly what happened / why the member of the train staff acted in the way he/she did - we have just seen media reports.  And he / she (train crew member) can't easily answer here, so perhaps we should not point any fingers and say "wrong" or "right" about the chosen course of action.

Yet ... I can say if my daughter (or son) at that age had been travelling home, alone, long distance, last train at night and had been chucked off the train because of an irregularity in their ticketing, I would have been pretty unhappy.  Had my son or daughter (out of character, of course  ) been under the influence of alcohol, threatened the train crew when asked reasonably to explain the situation, or something of that ilk, then I think I would have been less sympathetic and told them that they only had themselves to blame.

I'm just back from a journey down to Weymouth - ironically THROUGH Frome - and we had a couple of situations where the ticketing and train crew had to get involved - it's bound to happen with such a complex system.  They handled the situations though as models of courtesy, and in such a was that we got positive resolution in both cases. I've nothing but praise for them.

[Jim]

They handled the situations though as models of courtesy, and in such a was that we got positive resolution in both cases. I've nothing but praise for them.

Never see that in the media do we!

[Lee]

Media - wise , I can only put up what I come across in my daily "trawl." If I didnt post the articles , there would be a lot less for you good people to comment on........

[grahame]

Media - wise , I can only put up what I come across in my daily "trawl." If I didnt post the articles , there would be a lot less for you good people to comment on........

I for one am more than delighted that you post these items up for us, Lee - I'll just suggest that we pull back to some extent on making assumptions on specific cases where we may not have the full facts.  It's far more important to have aired the views than to have reached a conclusion.

[BandHcommuter]

I certainly appreciate the regular digest of news articles and other snippets of information which Lee provides.

Forum members may also be aware of this website http://www.transportinfo.org.uk/ which has links to media articles on a range of wider transport and related matters.

[mr_guard]

The procedure on the train company I work for in this situation would be as follows (assuming passenger is co-operative / coherant).

1. Rules state ticket isn't valid without appropriate railcard. Therefore ticketing staff are entitled to charge for a brand new ticket, which would be the most expensive fare. Some may use discretion and sell a saver ticket, but the standard fare is what the rules state should be sold.

2. If the passenger doesn't have sufficient money to pay (likely given the cost of some of these fares), then the passenger is obliged to give the ticket examiner their name and address, which can be checked against a central computer. Chances are a student would have some form of ID. Assuming this is valid, what we call an Unpaid Fares' Notice is issued, which is like a ticket for that one journey and allows travel, but the fare (and in these cases it is ALWAYS the full Standard Open Single) must be paid in ten days, and becomes a civil debt between you and the railway. If it is not paid in ten days, then an administration fee of ^15 is levied, and if it still remains unpaid, it is treated as evidence in a ticketless travel case and goes to court.

This is standard procedure throughout the railway industry. If guards / ticket examiners request police assistance to deal with fare evasion, one of the first questions asked is 'have you attempted to get the suspect's name and address?'.

A passenger should only be thrown off a train if 1) they are unco-operative  / threatening / violent  (or harassing other passengers, which in this case is unlikely) 2) refuse to give a name and address 3) give a false name and address and you can prove it is false (and yes we do get men giving female names or proof of ID - er it's me sister's bank card and so on)!

Therefore if the student was asked to leave the train, either she is not the poor sobbing wreck she's made out to be, or the member of staff hasn't followed (or has not been correctly instructed(!!) on) the rules. In my experience both are quite possible.

Note: to board a train with no means of payment in the hope you can pay later with one of these notices, is considered fraudulent travel, and would be dealt with via the courts, rather than penalty fares. Hope this clears any confusion up.

[grahame]

Therefore if the student was asked to leave the train, either she is not the poor sobbing wreck she's made out to be, or the member of staff hasn't followed (or has not been correctly instructed(!!) on) the rules. In my experience both are quite possible.

Thanks for your detailed background, Mr Guard ... all makes sense.  And, yes, I agree with your conclusion. At our level of abstraction, we can't know which it was ....

[vacman]

As a member of rail staff for a TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company), I have had many similar experiences, as pointed out by someone else, the ticket was NOT valid. What happens quite often is that students buy a ticket on the internet and realise that you can buy a railcard ticket without having to show your railcard at the time of purchase, and unfortunately a lot of ticket inspectors when checking tickets dont check supporting railcards (which they are supposed to!). Anyone who does this however, faces prosecution for fare evasion under the regulation of railways act 1889 because they have fraudulently obtained a discount on their ticket, the maximum penalty for fare evasion is ^1000 fine and/or 3 months imprisonment. We don't know the in's and out's of the incident in question, but I have regularly been in the same situation and when you ask for the passengers name and address they tell you to F*** off or refuse, in such cases I would ask the individual to leave the train.

[Jim]

and unfortunately a lot of ticket inspectors when checking tickets dont check supporting railcards (which they are supposed to!).

I agree there!