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Author Topic: South Hampshire Rail Users (SHRUG)  (Read 53045 times)
Denis
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« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2009, 11:10:42 »

This really is my last comment before I disappear for a fortnight.

I^m glad some of you find FGW (First Great Western) kinder to its passengers, and more flexible than SWT (South West Trains). That is exactly our experience. I have recently on two occasions seen FGW staff take no action against passengers with Advance tickets who had caught the wrong train. Two passengers who did the same thing on SWT were charged ^170 on top of their ^9 fares.

SWT, through its general attitude, does engender strong feelings. Passenger Focus called its 20% surcharge on morning off-peak returns to London an ^Abuse^ which would particularly hurt families (see RAIL). This applies from Southampton and Winchester, for example, but not from Basingstoke whence passengers have the choice of going to Paddington via FGW.

The latest personal attack against me on your website and speculation about how Hogrider started is frankly quaint. If you really want to know the truth, here it is:

BR (British Rail(ways)) axed most of the Totton stops of the semi-fast off-peak Waterloo-Poole trains at a time when Totton was officially Britain^s fastest growing town.  Totton was seeing increasing number of London commuters and some people were very inconvenienced. Commuters may need to use off-peak trains on occasions for all sorts of reasons: medical, domestic, medical. At the request of some fellow commuters who knew I was interested in railways, I put together a (two-page) newsletter which I copied to them, to local MPs (Member of Parliament) and Councillors, to the then RUCC» (Rail Users Consultative Committee - about) and to the managing director of what is now SWT, Peter Field.

At first, Mr Field didn^t want to know, but he did eventually offer us a meeting at Southampton Central with himself and other senior managers. This broke the ice and led to a second meeting at which there was so much friendly discussion that one manager held the Totton train for a couple of minutes so that we could finish talking. Mr Field thought we should form a rail user group, as he saw such groups as playing a significant role in the future.

An immediate result of these contacts was a later service from Waterloo to Totton. Restoration of the axed off-peak Totton stops followed later.

We did not form a group immediately because of the time restraints on long-distance commuters. When we did, it was because we impressed Carlton as a well-knit, knowledgeable group that they wanted to do a programme about us. In the meantime,  I circulated more newsletters, which included updates on franchising. I copied in Brian Souter, who wrote to me on 9 January 1996 saying, ^Thank you for your letter and franchise newsletters of 8th December. I found the contents useful and informative and would appreciate if you would keep me on your mailing list.^

We expected that some kind of friendly relationship might continue:  ^We want responsiveness to passengers^ wishes. We want, in the railways, all the characteristics of the best of British industry. The Sainsburys of this world respond rather well to their customers^ changing demands without any help from the state, thank you very much. We want some of that responsiveness for the railway too^  [Dr Brian Mawhinney,  Secretary of State for Transport, in speech reproduced in DETR leaflet January 1995]


But Stagecoach doesn^t work like that:
^When we buy a business, we look at management structure, then administration, then engineering staff, and the last one we look at is the traffic. --- Once we have rationalised the network, we know exactly whether we are making money or losing it.^ [Barry Hinkley, former Stagecoach Director, quoted in ^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar].


^----there is a fundamental defensiveness about Stagecoach^s attitude to the press, borne of an arrogance and deep conviction that the company is right and everyone else is wrong.^ [^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]


Awarding the franchise to Stagecoach was really taking the fight to the enemy --- It was the most aggressive decision we could take, and if we had tried to dress privatisation in its most acceptable form, it would have been better to award it to almost anyone else.
[Steve Norris, transport minister, quoted in ^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]

 ^Thousands of commuters today faced delays and train cancellations as the decision to axe 71 drivers by one of the first rail companies to be privatised turned into a fiasco."  [Evening Standard 17/2/1997]

^We are going to be an hour, perhaps an hour and a half, late for work but there is not much I can do about it.^ [Commuter Brian Church, quoted in the Evening Standard 17/2/1997]


^The South^s watchdog, the Rail Users^ Consultative Committee, said customers were confused and angry.^
[Southern Daily Echo 18/2/97]


 ^It has not taken long for rail privatisation to come off the track. Barely a year after being handed a ^54 million subsidy to run South West Trains, Stagecoach is cancelling 39 trains per day and receiving no more than a light tap on the wrist from the regulator^
[Daily Telegraph, quoted in ^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]


^South West Trains have broken their privatisation pledges, leaving passengers cheated of the travel information and rail services they were promised a year ago.^ [Andrew Smith, Labour Party^s transport chief, quoted in the Evening Standard 17/2/1997]


^People have been ringing us feeling very confused and insecure. They still don^t know what^s going on.^
[Mike Hewitson, Secretary of the RUCC for Southern England, quoted in the Southern Daily Echo of 18/2/1997]

 ^We cannot be held to ransom over the needs of the present and the future by any company that fails to perform along the franchise grounds to which it signed up. The growing disenchantment of the operation of the franchise has only been added to by poor management and other decisions.^
[Councillor Mike Roberts, quoted in the Hampshire Chronicle o 21/2/97]


^We have the misfortune to live in the part of the country served by the worst single example of rail privatisation ^ South West Trains. Anybody who has travelled on the service recently will know that the whole system is in chaos, added to by South West Trains^ recent decision to scrap more than 190 of its services in a week. The problem arises through treating a public service as if it were just another marketing exercise.^
[Alan Whitehead, prospective Labour Parliamentary candidate for Southampton Test, quoted in the Southern Daily Echo, 8/3/97]


^After a few days of cutting services in a random way, which meant some much-used Portsmouth-Salisbury trains had been cancelled, prompting a host of complaints, Cox went to the franchising director, John O^Brien, to get his blessing for a programme of planned cancellations.  They agreed a plan by which SWT cut 39 trains per day, 2.6% of its 1,500 daily total, in addition to the 1% or so unplanned cancellations that result from route mishaps such as sick drivers or breakdowns. John Watts, the Transport Minister, could hardly contain his anger, calling Stagecoach^s management ^inept^.
[^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]


^SWT have until the end of April to convince me they are operating a proper service and will continue to do so. Otherwise they face a fine of a million pounds with the possibility of further sanctions, including franchise termination.^
[Franchising Director, John O^Brien, quoted in ^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]


^We in the Conservative party were very happy at the way rail privatisation was going ^ new investment, new ideas, new services. --- SWT instantly unwound all that. It was so obviously a grave error of judgement, so obviously to the disadvantage of passengers, and so clearly an act committed by a private company. It left a bad taste instantly in people^s mouths about SWT. Even now, the intelligent non-transport buff will remember SWT and it will take years to get SWT out of the political lexicon.^
[Steve Norris, quoted in ^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]

^A total of 28,000 complaints were lodged by passengers last year against the privatised South West Trains. That is more than 500 complaints a week and does not include the massive travel chaos in February and March this year after the company got rid of too many drivers to save cash and did not have enough left to run all the trains.^
[Evening Standard, 24/4/1997]

^Souter poured petrol on the fire by suggesting that some of his customers had nothing better to do than to write letters of complaint in office time and wondered whether their bosses knew they were doing this.  --- Cox did not help by saying that ^critics were fully paid-up members of the hindsight club.^
[^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]

I agree that Hogrider is robust. So is this:

^Souter was so ecstatic about his purchase of Porterbrook that soon after the deal, he regaled a bunch of railway bigwigs with the following ditty sung to the tune of the Teddy Bears^ Picnic, poking fun at Sir George Young, the Transport Secretary, who was based in Marsham Street in Westminster:
If you go down to Marsham Street, you^ll never believe your eyes;
If you go down to Marsham Street, you^re sure of a big surprise.
The Porterbrook sale was never expected,
Poor Sir George is feeling rejected,
And Mr Watts will never be re-elected.^
[^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]

Some five years later, Stephen Byers was threatening Stagecoach with loss of the SWT franchise for dreadful performance. So had SWT started listening to passengers? Hardly, they launched the powerful PR (Public Relations) document ^e-motion^ which included articles by the Passengers Panel, supposedly independent, though the articles were increasingly penned by Stagecoach Director Sir Alan Greengross, contained only the most anodyne criticisms, and used set phrases like ^SWT to their credit^.  One article even attacked MPs who spoke up on behalf of passengers. I note that the FGW version of the Passengers Panel actually gives contact details of local representatives. SWT is much too centrist and controlled for that. Hogrider at least collects the comments of many people. It may surprise you that state departments do watch for trends illustrated by ongoing anecdotal evidence. It^s a kind of free research.

SWT has been hugely profitable, so much so that Stagecoach is now in a mess because it overbid for the current franchise by hundreds of millions. So there is a sting in the tail just as there was after the first franchise award, for example the ^abuse^ of the 20% fare increases, the loss of travel centres (always very busy and great for disabled people) and reduced staffing at stations (despite all the hype about secure stations, and the additional station staffing which is a requirement of the new Southern franchise.)


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JayMac
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« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2009, 13:07:39 »

This really is my last comment before I disappear for a fortnight.


The latest personal attack against me on your website and speculation about how Hogrider started is frankly quaint. If you really want to know the truth, here it is:


A quaint attack? Give me one of those anyday.  Grin
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grahame
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« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2009, 18:26:38 »

This really is my last comment before I disappear for a fortnight.

I am risking following up, and giving you the chance to get back with me on the following, as I see you are on the site at the moment.

Quote
The latest personal attack against me on your website and speculation about how Hogrider started is frankly quaint. If you really want to know the truth, here it is:

Thank you for filling us in.  I found it very interesting to read through what you had to say, and to see further your style.  It's not my style, "but each to their own".  If everyone in the world was identical, we would all turn up at Paddington for the 17:15 to Reading ... and there would be no driver.

The moderator team does not allow personal attacks on this web site, but we do allow constructive criticism on things which are in the public domain - and we'll allow much more robust criticism of someone who himself takes full advantage of his rights to express forthright views.

Please let me know (by p.m. or email) what you consider to be a personal attack, and I will review it carefully. If it is something that I wrote that you consider to be such an attack, please use the "notify" button and it will go to another moderator, or p.m. any moderator of your choice. 
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The Grecian
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« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2009, 18:45:17 »

As I started this thread I feel I ought to respond to Denis' post on page 2.

Having read the various newsletters, I was interested to know what other people would make of them. As both this forum and the newsletters are in public domain and anyone can join this forum it wasn't intended to be secret - as it hasn't been. If you type in 'South Hampshire Rail Users Group' into google, this comes up as option 4 and 5 at the moment anyway. Since there is a fair amount of overlap between FGW (First Great Western) and SWT (South West Trains), plus FGW serve South Hampshire I thought it was relevant to this forum.

At any rate it's produced an interesting thread! Wink
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fullspeedahead
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« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2009, 20:26:07 »

This thread has become subject to a bit of misdirected friendly fire largely due to one or two people getting a bit overexcited. Theres no need for anybody to give themselves a nosebleed, afterall most of us are working towards the same end.

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JayMac
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« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2009, 21:56:23 »

I think the 'personal attack' remark may have been directed at my assertion that Denis Fryer has a 'negative attitude' and that this may not be good for his health. For any offence caused, I apologise. Although Denis himself described the personal attack as quaint, so I don't think I caused any grave offence. My remark was meant to be taken as light-hearted, however I appreciate that the tone of the written word may not always come across as intended. I'll be more liberal with my use of emoticons in future. Embarrassed Embarrassed Grin Grin
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grahame
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« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2009, 23:37:18 »

I've had an exhausting day ... and awoke from a sleep about an hour ago to find several emails and p.m.s on this subject as well as the posts that are here after my previous one.

Cutting a long story short. It's clear to me that no personal attacks were intended by anyone, and that had been handled before I awoke.   We have different ways of putting the case for the travelling peson, and of asking questions, getting answers and making suggestions, and it's good to discuss the effectiveness of otherwise of those methods - for the greater good of everyone who wants to see a healthy passenger rail industry that provides the service that the customer wants / needs.

A question was also asked as to whether or not we should have automatically have contacted SHRUG to say - "hey - you're being talked about and may want to answer".  My immediate reaction is "who do we think we are?"; for my personal blog, I regard it as almost pompous of me to get in touch with someone and say "hey - I'm talking about you - do you want to answer" but on a couple of occasions I have done so, with (it has to be said) very mixed results indeed.  For the forum?   I don't know ... someone who knows / knows of the SHRUG team let Denis know quite quickly (Thank you, xxx, excellent call).   One of our admins (not me - I was a.f.k) fast tracked confirming his account, and a welcome was added quickly on to his first post. 

I'm reasonably happy with that action - it resulted in a quick follow up from SHRUG which, after all, is excellent and exactly the result we would have wanted.  But I say just reasonably because I remain unsure if we should have had some automatic mechanism in place to alert interested (third) parties to posts which may effect them.   That's probably a bit of an esoteric discussion that should be added to the agenda for a moderators' meeting at some point ... and the decision taken will differ in 2009, when we are running at 2500 posts per month compared to 2008 when we were running at 1500 and 2007 when we had a run rate of 250.

Denis - have a great trip. And I would be delighted to read about how you get on / what you learn, especially as it provides information and comparisons that can relate to FGW (First Great Western) and neighbouring franchsie areas and services.
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« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2009, 21:20:51 »

The latest edition of the totally unbiased newsletter of SHRUG is now online at: http://www.shrug.info/Hogrider124/Hogrider%20124%20long%20version.html

An enjoyable read as ever. Good to see that despite the usual tirade of negativity towards anything and everything to do with SWT (South West Trains), poor old FGW (First Great Western) also come in for a bit of a slagging off too!
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« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2009, 22:44:45 »

Merciful heaven, can anyone actually face reading through that tirade? Random capitalization, trains AXED rather than cancelled, DUFF STOCK (didn't know SWT (South West Trains) ran 47s...), people THROWN OFF. This is looking like someone/some people who may have too much time on their hands.

It bring to mind (to me at least) a few short-lived posters on this site who have posted a few initial messages being loudly and thoroughly negative about every single facet of FGW (First Great Western) in the face of evidence to the contrary - they may not be perfect but they don't run too bad a show either!
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« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2009, 22:59:00 »

I have just scanned the lastest copy of SHRUGs 'Hogrider'. I say 'scanned', because my brain starts to hurt after a few lines of each story.  Smiley

However, one entry stood out. The tale of the three sixteen year old girls and their treatment at the hands of a FGW (First Great Western) HST (High Speed Train) Train Manager and then staff at Taunton Station. If what was written in that letter is an accurate representation of the girls' treatment then it is a sad indictment on the staff involved. Shame on them.

It was also poor form of CrossCountry to sell the tickets without explicity checking that all three passengers were 16-25 Railcard holders.
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« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2009, 11:44:51 »

http://www.shrug.info/Hogrider124/Hogrider%20124%20long%20version.html


First four lines of the Index:

"SWT (South West Trains)’S EXTRAORDINARY PERSECUTION OF HONEST, DECENT PASSENGERS:

CONTEMPTIBLE TREATMENT OF PASSENGERS CAUSES RIOT AND CASUALTY AT TWICKENHAM: 

COUNTERING ABUSE UNDER THE PENALTY FARES SCHEME:

GIRLS’ NIGHTMARE JOURNEY FROM ROMSEY:"



The trouble is that with this sort of "reporting",  IF there is a justifiable reason to complain (as mac says there may be about the Taunton story) no-one takes any notice because of the hysterical headlines applied to every minor incident - whether it was the Rail Co's fault or not.

This guy should offer his services to the Sun AND the Mail !
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« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2009, 12:27:14 »

I'm quite intrigued by the 'riot' at Twickenham  Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2009, 12:57:39 »

Like BNM, I am shocked and troubled by the report of the girls' treatment by FGW (First Great Western) staff at Taunton.

Just about the only comforting thing about that story is the fact that other members of the public were willing to put themselves out to help the girls.

I realise we're only seeing only one side of the story and that there are some glaring discrepancies (e.g. the fact that they are variously required to pay ^38 extra and ^18 extra each), but nevertheless as a father of a daughter who travels by train a lot myself I'm left feeling really quite angry on their behalf, and would very much like to know what, if any, defence FGW offer up for their staff's attitude and behaviour on this occasion.
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« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2009, 13:09:38 »

The one thing troubling me is the fact that they booked the tickets at crosscountrytrains.co.uk therefore it is their fault regarding the 16-25 railcards being specified incorrectly. I would imagine it states that each ticket holder must hold a railcard and as with anything on the website, take it with a pinch of salt. It's probably been blown out of all proportions.
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« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2009, 13:17:37 »

As a fellow moonraker I tend to agree with moonrakerz that it is too over the top to be effective.

I also agree with bignosemac that ones brain tends to hurt after a few lines which is a pity because there is some interesting stuff in there.

Particularly the day by day  train late, cancelled and short formed etc would be much better without the caps (inspector blakey's post) as a list with each train on one line. It would take up so many lines it would speak for itself. You could have a little summary of the number of trains affected by each cause. This should be separate stand alone posting without invective it would have more impact. Was it "Dragnet" that had "Just the Facts Mam"

There is also a very interesting piece about the new Weymouth timetable and how it differs from the DfTs» (Department for Transport - about) spec. Now that is worth making a fuss about but it's buried so many pages deep you miss it scrolling through.

As to SWTs (South West Trains) treatment of vunerable pasengers there does seem to be a cause for concern but as we only get the agrieved parties story it is difficult to draw any conclusions. I know from posts on this board from those in the know that such incidents are often not as they seem and the TOC (Train Operating Company) may not be entirely to blame as is assummed here.

The problem is the overhype of particular cases tends to conceal what might be worrying concerns that SWT trains have instructed there staff to get the most money out of people irrespective of it's legality or morality, whilst at the same time reducing the opportunity for legitmate passengers to get the correct ticket. If this were to be  the case then a rational campaign siting in non emotional language as many case as possible would be a good way of drawing attention to SWT practices.

But I have to say if SWT is as bad as portrayed here than I shall stop saying I started work at Waterloo for South West Division of SR(resolve) I'd be too ashamed to see how badly it's doing compared with then.

Although it makes you glad we've only got FGW (First Great Western).
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 13:43:54 by eightf48544 » Logged
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