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Author Topic: Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion  (Read 1053702 times)
Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #2055 on: October 26, 2016, 10:31:04 »

So DfT» (Department for Transport - about) will be funding the electrification as far as Bridgend but the Welsh Gov must find the money for Bridgend to Swansea? And presumably the two are contingent on each other. Sounds like quite a good way of ensuring it doesn't get further than Cardiff...
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Noggin
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« Reply #2056 on: October 27, 2016, 14:41:42 »

Talking of jacking up rail bridges, have we all seen the trial of lifting masonry arches rather than demolishing them? http://freyssinet.co.uk/elevarch-masonry-arch-jacking-trial/ and pics at https://twitter.com/freyssinetrail. Would appear to have been successful. 
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ellendune
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« Reply #2057 on: November 05, 2016, 12:57:49 »

Does anyone know what is going on between Swindon and Didcot this weekend to require a long possession?
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Rhydgaled
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« Reply #2058 on: November 05, 2016, 14:37:24 »

So DfT» (Department for Transport - about) will be funding the electrification as far as Bridgend but the Welsh Gov must find the money for Bridgend to Swansea?
No, here, I think, is the relevant announcement. That says
Quote
the UK (United Kingdom) government will cover the full costs of electrifying the Great Western mainline to Swansea and devolve the Wales and Borders rail franchise

My guess is that the 'including the section between Cardiff and Bridgend' bit was put in to make clear that was considered part of GWML (Great Western Main Line) (DfT funded), rather than part of the ValleyLines scheme (with the joint DfT/WAG» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) funding arrangement).

However, apparently, Sir Peter Hendy either isn't aware of that agreement for DfT to fund wires to Swansea, or he thinks the DfT are not going to keep their promise.
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Noggin
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« Reply #2059 on: November 06, 2016, 20:46:47 »

So DfT» (Department for Transport - about) will be funding the electrification as far as Bridgend but the Welsh Gov must find the money for Bridgend to Swansea?
No, here, I think, is the relevant announcement. That says
Quote
the UK (United Kingdom) government will cover the full costs of electrifying the Great Western mainline to Swansea and devolve the Wales and Borders rail franchise

My guess is that the 'including the section between Cardiff and Bridgend' bit was put in to make clear that was considered part of GWML (Great Western Main Line) (DfT funded), rather than part of the ValleyLines scheme (with the joint DfT/WAG» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) funding arrangement).

However, apparently, Sir Peter Hendy either isn't aware of that agreement for DfT to fund wires to Swansea, or he thinks the DfT are not going to keep their promise.

IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly), the structure of the deal was that Westminster would technically have fronted the Welsh Assembly's contribution, which would be repaid through a facilities charge on the infrastructure and would effectively mean that the Wales & West franchise (and effectively the Assembly, through subsidies) would have been paying significant sums back to Westminster each year.

In the version I heard, the relevant Welsh AM's didn't get this nuance until after it was announced, and were not happy about it, as they thought they were going to be able to claim at least some credit, and didn't like the idea of being in hock to Westminster. One interpretation of the current impasse is that the Assembly are trying to find someone else who will pay for the upgrade, but let the Assembly take credit for it. But it seems unlikely they'll find a big enough mug soon enough, hence Hendy throwing up his hands, doing the bare minimum in Wales and getting on with the English bits.   
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JayMac
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« Reply #2060 on: November 06, 2016, 22:54:52 »

You mean Wales & Borders franchise surely?

Wales & West is long gone.
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stuving
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« Reply #2061 on: November 06, 2016, 23:44:24 »

IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly), the structure of the deal was that Westminster would technically have fronted the Welsh Assembly's contribution, which would be repaid through a facilities charge on the infrastructure and would effectively mean that the Wales & West franchise (and effectively the Assembly, through subsidies) would have been paying significant sums back to Westminster each year.

That is pretty much what the CP5 (Control Period 5 - the five year period between 2014 and 2019) enhancement delivery plans used to say:
Quote
Key assumptions
• The business case is centred on efficiencies from an electric fleet as well as growth in demand from customers.
• The Welsh Government is the funder and will specify the scope and outputs to recommence development of the scheme in 2015.
• The scheme is funded through RAB borrowing, a capital contribution from the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) and a facility charge will be paid by the Wales & Borders franchise.

But that was for Project WL001 - Welsh Valley Lines Electrification, listed under England and Wales Projects: Wales. For W001b - South Wales Main Line Electrification - which is under England and Wales Projects: Western, it says:
Quote
Scope of works
The scope required for this project includes the extension of electrification on the core route as noted below:
• Cardiff (excl.) to Swansea (incl.) (ELR: SWM2 216m 49ch to 190m 68ch
and there is no mention of the Welsh Government.

After the Hendy review, the new delivery plan says this about WL001:
Quote
Network Rail’s obligation
Network Rail has delivered its previous obligation to complete development of options for electrification to GRIP (Guide to Railway Investment Projects) stage 2 – this was achieved in early 2014.
The primary funder – the Welsh Government – is now reviewing the scope and future direction of the scheme and all Network Rail development work is on hold. Network Rail’s future obligations will be determined when the review is completed.
...
Great Western Electrification will deliver electrification between Cardiff and Bridgend.
and of W001b it says:
Quote
Network Rail’s obligation in CP5 is to complete GRIP Stage 3 and some enabling works. Full delivery of the scheme will not be completed until CP6 (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024).

So on that basis the funding regime Noggin describes is for the valley Lines alone. The debate above was about the main line, which was previously treated as all DfT-funded. The delays with electrification mean it has been pushed into CP6, and as a result it is no longer committed funding. That presumably happens just because the DfT funds attached to the HLOS (High Level Output Specification) are time-limited to one CP and fixed as money, not as output.

But the announcement of the agreement to the post-HLOS bickering match, in a speech by David Cameron on 21/11/2014, said (as pre-released by his office):
Quote
In his speech to the UK (United Kingdom) investment summit in Newport, the Prime Minister will announce that the UK government has agreed a funding package with the Welsh government to electrify the Valley Lines.

He will also announce that the UK government will cover the full costs of electrifying the Great Western mainline to Swansea and devolve the Wales and Borders rail franchise, so that the Welsh government decides the new franchise in 2018.

But later on it says:
Quote
In order to make this deal happen, the UK government will take over sponsorship and fund delivery of the Cardiff-Bridgend section of the Main Line electrification scheme to Swansea – worth £105 million, and contribute £125 million towards the costs of the wider Valley Lines electrification scheme.

The Welsh government will take over sponsorship and delivery of the Valley Lines project.

From that it does look as if the line from Cardif to Bridgend mysteriously got transferred from the main line to the Valleys part of the electrification, and had to be put back. The may be a result of earlier history, as "PR13 Initial Industry Plan Supporting Document - Definition of proposed CP5 enhancements" (September 2011) includes this under "Great Western electrification":
Quote
On 23rd July 2009 the Department for Transport (DfT) published Britain’s Transport Infrastructure: Rail Electrification, confirming government support for a programme of electrification. The projects supported, to be RAB funded, were the GWML (Great Western Main Line) (to Bristol, Oxford, Newbury and Swansea) and Liverpool – Manchester via the Chat Moss route.

On 26th October 2009 Network Rail published the Network RUS (Route Utilisation Strategy): Electrification Strategy, with a core strategy consisting of electrification of MML» (Midland Main Line. - about), GWML and two strategic infill schemes (Liverpool – Manchester and Gospel Oak – Barking).

On 1st March 2011 the Secretary of State for Transport confirmed the electrification of the Great Western Main Line between Cardiff, Bristol and Didcot (having previously announced electrification in November 2010 from London to Oxford, Didcot and Newbury).

So Cardiff-Swansea, having been in earlier versions of this document, is no longer included in the proposed list of outputs. But it is still mentioned in two places, suggesting the editing to remove it was not 100% successful. The Valleys project is listed line by line, followed by:
Quote
  • discussions are ongoing with the Welsh Government and DfT regarding extending the scope to include the Ebbw Vale branch, the Maesteg branch and Cardiff – Bridgend via the main line. These will now be considered as increments against the original remit;

So maybe it's not surprising that no-one was ever quite sure which project Cardiff-Bridgend was part of. But while the (ex-)PM's statement is clear enough, you can see why (as Rhygdaled says) every subsequent statement about Cardiff-Swansea  has to have the rider "including Cardiff-Bridgend" tacked on, for avoidance of doubt.

But if Hendy was right to say Cardiff-Swansea now depends on the Welsh Government, it looks as if DfT thinks its shifting into CP6 entirely cancels its (and HMG's) earlier commitment to fund it without a Welsh contribution. Unless he got mixed up...or was misreported.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 23:52:50 by stuving » Logged
Rhydgaled
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« Reply #2062 on: November 07, 2016, 14:42:28 »

Blimey, stuving, it sounds like this is a really complicated suituation. As you say though, "the (ex-)PM's statement is clear". Crystal clear; the UK (United Kingdom) government WILL PAY for electrification of the entire GWML (Great Western Main Line) through to Swansea, including the Cardiff-Bridgend section.

I can sort-of understand that they (UK gov./DfT» (Department for Transport - about)) may now be trying to use the slippage into the next control period as an excuse to wriggle out of that promise, but in my view it is still a promise and trying to break it is grounds for (metaphorically) dragging the UK Government / DfT over hot coals.
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« Reply #2063 on: November 07, 2016, 22:45:54 »

Blimey, stuving, it sounds like this is a really complicated suituation.

I can only concur with that view - and also thank stuving for such a detailed and well-referenced post on this subject.  Shocked Roll Eyes Lips sealed
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« Reply #2064 on: November 08, 2016, 09:35:26 »

Blimey, stuving, it sounds like this is a really complicated suituation.

I can only concur with that view - and also thank stuving for such a detailed and well-referenced post on this subject.  Shocked Roll Eyes Lips sealed

Yes, thank you for the clarification, much appreciated.
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grahame
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« Reply #2065 on: November 08, 2016, 09:57:07 »

Hot off the presses:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-update-rail-investment-in-the-great-western-route

From Paul Maynard:

Quote
As a result of this scrutiny from the Hendy review I have decided to defer 4 electrification projects that are part of the programme of work along the Great Western route. The 4 projects being deferred are:

electrification between Oxford and Didcot Parkway
electrification of Filton Bank (Bristol Parkway to Bristol Temple Meads)
electrification west of Thingley Junction (Bath Spa to Bristol Temple Meads)
electrification of Thames Valley Branches (Henley & Windsor)
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Gordon the Blue Engine
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« Reply #2066 on: November 08, 2016, 10:07:35 »

Is this a further deferment beyond what we already knew? For example, Didcot – Oxford has already been put back until 2019 – is there now a further deferment?

Pity Paul Maynard didn't put some dates in his statement.
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Timmer
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« Reply #2067 on: November 08, 2016, 10:10:11 »

This is an absolute disgrace! Has a project ever been so terribly managed as this one has? BR (British Rail(ways)) had no such issues electrifying lines, why can't Network Rail do the same?

They can get away with this because all the new trains will be bi-modes. Looking like Dft made a good call on this one.
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bobm
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« Reply #2068 on: November 08, 2016, 10:10:45 »

Reaction from GWR (Great Western Railway)

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The changes are of course disappointing. However, we have done a considerable amount of work with the Department for Transport over the past year to find different ways to provide the benefits we promised customers despite the challenges faced by Network Rail.

Although there is some more work to do, we expect to be able to deliver the benefits broadly in line with the timescales we originally expected. In some areas of the network we may even be able to exceed the original expectations, as we have done for example the Thames Valley where all our local electric trains will now be brand new Class 387s, rather than the older trains previously planned.

Of course, we will need to understand today’s news a little more to be completely sure, but we will do all we can to deliver our commitments to customers as close as possible to the dates we promised when the franchise started.  
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ChrisB
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« Reply #2069 on: November 08, 2016, 10:12:03 »

So, no 387s to Oxford then....
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