Changes to FGW complimentary service?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

... they are complementary refreshments, given as a courtesy to passengers travelling in First Class. What you've paid for is a journey, with a seat in the First Class section of the train, and the improved environment this may offer ...

"Complimentary" or "Free" always worries me.  It usually means "included in what you pay" or "free at the point of delivery".  Ask local council officers in the public transport section about free bus travel for pensioners, and they'll confirm that it's only free at the point of delivery - that it's actually paid for through the tax system.  I think you'll also find that such 'free at the point of delivery' systems tend to run away with the budget - call for a bottomless pocket - as the majority of consumers will not give consideration to the cost when their consumption makes no difference to their personal budget.

Flamingo - I think your logic is flawed. If you consider such drinks to be truely complimentary and not included in the cost  of the First Class ticket, are you happy for some non-paying passengers who are seated in first class (and for whom you have called up the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) to the next station) to be given as much as they wish from the first class trolley? And are you happy that complimentary refreshments should be available to anyone who has to walk through first class for operational reasons - for example just after joining the train at a short platform where they have to get in at a first class door?

It's quite another question as to what should / should not be bundled with a First Class fare. Logically, the removal of something from the bundle without adding something of equal value and uptake back would be - in effect - a rise in the price, but how significant that is will vary from person to person.

[Phil]

I'm fortunate enough to be given the privilege of travelling First Class on a roughly weekly basis, thanks to an enlightened employer who considers that senior execs are more effective if given the opportunity to continue to work on paperwork or lap/palm-tops during longer journeys, and arrive at their destination comparatively rested, un-cramped and refreshed.

If I were an employer myself, paying for the service which the ToC is offering, I would expect to see desks, power, comfortable seats and basic refreshments freely available (and by "basic" I mean bottled water, teas, coffees and snacks), all provided as an intrinsic part of the enhanced package of facilities on offer.

Personally I think FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have it about right as it stands at the moment. It's perfectly reasonable to charge for enhanced items above and beyond those mentioned above, such as soft drinks, chilled water, sandwiches and wine (plus hot snacks on some journeys).

If the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) considers that offering more in First Class brings more people onto the service, then it's entirely up to them to set the ticket price at a level which enables them to offer those inducements. And to remove them when either they are content that enough people are paying for First Class, or if they consider they are no longer affordable given the present ticket price. I'm neither going to refuse extra enticements if they're offered (I used to thoroughly enjoy my glass of red wine on a Friday evening!) nor am I going to grumble when they are removed.

I have though noticed though that on an increasing number of journeys I've made recently there's been two "customer hosts" steering the trolley up and down through First Class. I hesitate to mention anything which even hints at staff reductions for fear of unintentionally upsetting anyone reading this, but seriously.... if money's that tight, isn't there potentially a saving to be made there? Does it really require two people to man one trolley, even on particularly busy trains?

[moonrakerz]

If you want it that badly then pay for it, and ....................., put the expenses claim in.  

What do you think we all are - MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) ?   

[Mookiemoo]

In case you haven't noticed, the First Class lounge in Paddington has just had a major refurbishment, not the actions of a company trying to get rid of them all. So, getting back on thread, just to clarify, your argument is that people pay anything between ^5 to ^100 for a first class seat just so they can have a few cans of coke, value ^1.50?

I think the argument is, when you are what are, in the peaks, high fares - it is not unreasonable to expect a first class level of service - it looks penny pinching to the extreme to remove the "complimentary" soft drinks.

[Mookiemoo]

The wholse point is - the lack of decent soft drinks is ludicrous

as I understand it - the cans were removed because of small numbers of people who were pocketing 6-8 numerous cans on a trip to take with them

Simple answer

Customer host pops them before giving them out

Why throw the baby out with the bath water

I do not drink coffee or tea - and im on a diet - so the only option FREE is water

What is wrong with free pop - even if its out of a bottle and poured like the OJ

If you want it that badly then pay for it (like everybody else does), and if you can justify it, put the expenses claim in.  What's a weight loss diet got to do with anything? Even if it's a special medical diet, you'll be hard pushed to find anything in railway by-laws, franchise agreements, anti-discrimination legislation, the European Convention on Human Rights or the Geneva Convention that says that the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) has to take this into account when selecting refreshments to offer their customers!

Fallenangel, you don't seem to grasp the concept that they are complementary refreshments, given as a courtesy to passengers travelling in First Class. What you've paid for is a journey, with a seat in the First Class section of the train, and the improved environment this may offer. If anybody says that they are travelling in First Class just so they can receive the complementary items, it's like saying you fly to New York every day as it's one way to get a lunch and some peanuts.

If the TOC's were reducing the personal space by adding in 20 more seats per carriage, or reducing the number of seats available by taking off a 1st class carriage, then I'd understand the moaning.  

ps. I'm hacked off the complementary diet coke is gone as well - but guess what, it's not the end of the world, if I want one, I pay for it - and I'm not on ^520 a day.

edited to add - Sod! I've bitten again!

Edited again to add - Sorry James, they should have been served with more grace than they were to you.

All my expenses come out of my own pocket - something that a full time employed union protected bod may not fully grasp.  So yes, I do buy diet coke but that comes to an extra 3-4 per day on top of my first class ticket.

Tell me what else is on the trolley - other than water - that is calorie free if you dont drink tea/coffee?  I know its a minor point but its the constant chip chip chip of the complimentary services that pisses people off when the fares just go up and up.

[vacman]

Sorry guys but the reason first class is no longer special is because of the amount of cheap first class tickets availiable, means more bums on seats but less revenue for the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s so less money to spend on the freebies, lately i've worked numerous trains and when going through FC^‡(resolve) I've seen in excess of 30 passengers ALL of which were on advance singles for around ^30 each (from Plymouth/Exeter!!) thats less than most people have paid in standard! If we want first class to be what it used to be-exclusive, then the FC advance needs to go, and then you'd all moan about that! I appreciate the fact that on the Cotswold line there are no advance tickets but on the majority of routes there are.

[grahame]

Graham, you are being pedantic (and incorrect). I wasn't calling the items free, I think you'll find that was Fallenangel.  To expand my argument, if they are complementary to the customer, (but paid for by the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company), as you say), then the TOC has got the option of what to offer. For example, if a plummer comes in to your house to mend a boiler, and you ask them if they want a cup of tea, what would be your response if they said no, but they'll have one of the beers they have just seen in your fridge and can you make them a ham sandwich, thank you very much?

Well ... your post (and the part I quoted) seemed to suggest that the items weren't 'really' a part of what the First Class ticket holder paid for, so were in some other category.

A plumber at my house ... offered a cup of tea. Explains he can't drink tea because of an allergy and asks for water.  My response?  "Yes of course - or can you drink coffee or something else". And from personal experience, I know that other people act this way too.  I have an allergy - one particular foodstuff that's found in lot of deserts; a polite "no that you, I can't" and it's rare - VERY rare - for an alternative not be offered.  And a family relative who would be really ill with fruit juice - we will ALWAYS provide a alternative. Real situations, both. In a professional environment (such as a train should be), the alternative if often better - sometimes embarrasingly so.   But I never intended to suggest that a cup of tea should be upped to beer and sandwiches, and I don't think that anyone else did.

To counter your "items of the same value should be offered", they are, if you go to buy water, tea or coffee from the buffet you will find them approximately the same price as the soft drinks".  It the First Class ticket came with a voucher for "items to the value of..." and the value of it was reduced (or prices raised) then your argument would have some logic to it.  There is a selection of complementary items. It used to include cans of soft drinks, it now doesn't. It now includes fruit juices, which it didn't. It also used to include muffins, salt & vinegar crisps, croissants, peanuts and pretzels at different times. It doesn't include these items now, but there is a different selection, some of which would appear to be a higher value than items they have replaced. It's not that long ago that the choice of snacks were biscuits, peanuts and pretzels.  The overall selection on offer has increased dramatically in the past two years.

OK; I'm too rarely in first to be able to express an opinion on that. But you have the issue there that by dramatically changing the offering, even at the same price level, you will tick off some people who will be noisy about what they have lost and please an equal number who really won't be as vocal.  What replaced the Friday afternoon wine that we've heard so much about?

Also Graham, it is obvious from my post I meant first class ticket holders (or with an authority to travel in First Class) ... 

It may be to you, but you have caught me before on somthing that I thought was obvious and turned out not to be, so I read what you say at face value, rather than guess at something else [not sure if that is the right emoticon!]

[Mookiemoo]

OK; I'm too rarely in first to be able to express an opinion on that. But you have the issue there that by dramatically changing the offering, even at the same price level, you will tick off some people who will be noisy about what they have lost and please an equal number who really won't be as vocal. 

Square root of sweet FA!

[JayMac]

I miss the free coke cos it goes down well with a paid for vodka from the trolley. Now I have to pay ^1.40 for a 500ml bottle.....which means I now need 2 50ml vodkas to wash down all that pop Can't do screwdrivers, cos concentrated OJ gives me bad acid reflux.....

[devon_metro]

I find the current offering quite nice.

The fruit juice is very nice, and i'm quite a fan of those strong crisps they do. The only thing missing from first class, is wifi. But I can't see that happening. If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are being forced to raise already rip-off priced tickets, then the finances must be taking a battering

[JayMac]

Bignosemac, Cardiff kept it's 1st class lounge as it gets heavily used, Bristol lost theirs because passengers were not using it and sweeping up the tumbleweed blowing through it was not worth the effort  (this is also a joke, by the way).

The tumbleweed was in evidence today when I stuck my head in the door at Cardiff's first class lounge. Why not FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have a door entry system like VWC at Wolverhampton and NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast) at Doncaster? Show your vaild 1st class ticket to the camera to gain entry. No permanent staffing needed.

[willc]

I never realised it was such a hard life travelling first class...

Just be glad Michael O'Leary isn't interested in running trains, otherwise he would have you paying to bring your laptops on board, never mind getting 'free' wifi, drinks and snacks.

[Mookiemoo]

I never realised it was such a hard life travelling first class...

Just be glad Michael O'Leary isn't interested in running trains, otherwise he would have you paying to bring your laptops on board, never mind getting 'free' wifi, drinks and snacks.

I think the problem is in people's definition of FC^‡(resolve).

When I started this five years ago, FC was often full at Oxford - even until October last year before I went to the emerald isle - it was still pretty full.  This is morning.  i remember in the evenings, many a time having to, shock horror, share a table with more than one other person - on many occasions up to four - as far as reading or oxford.

Since I've come back, it is noticable that FC is often a grave yard.  Clearly the recession and credit crunch has a part to play but I would argue that most people's definition of FC is........

1. Free refreshments - and yes that also includes pop
2. At seat service
3. And arguably - some form of sustenance on longer journeys

With the ever increasing price of the tickets - and by this I mean peak and walk on - i suspect more and more people are opting not to pay it. 

i wold never buy an FC for SWT^▸ (South West Trains) - unless I was on one of the major commuter routes into london - I certainly did not when going to egham/staines - no need as there was no service as such.   I wont if my next contract is bracknell. 

If the argument is, more and more first class is by advance and cheaper than standard then they are pricing the service appropriately, then how can they justify ANY trains with no advance fairs when I suspect other than one or two peak services, FC is not full anymore. 

From experience in the last coupe of weeks, FC to and from Swansea has been sparsely populated - never had to share a table with even one person.

Is this part of a plan to phase out FC?  because if they keep raising the prices an reducing the service, there will be few who will use it other than advance.

What they should be doing in hard time is offering FC tickets at a slight increase from SC but with the same service (and i'm not talking virgin level here - just previous when there was fruit juice, tea, coffee, pop, crisps, nuts and free cheap wine on a friday - many other than the hardest hit will go for it so they will have more bums on seats at more than SC - remember these are probably punters who would not pay full FC prices.  Then when the economy picks up..............some of those who are used to FC will be loathe to go back.  They may have some new loyal customers.

And the analogy with Micheal O'leary is fatuous - he only operates third class and has no concept of even standard.  There was a report recently where people are actually stopping using the likes of oleary's aluminium cans on the basis of they are sick of the money grabbing bastard

[devon_metro]

Bear in mind it's summer at the moment. First class to the west country on Saturdays is always well loaded, they must do a roaring trade with the new higher priced weekend first!

[willc]

I was only joshing about O'Leary, but even British Airways seem to be adopting his approach to customer service on short-haul now. Even FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have been flagging up their luggage policy on the website home page lately - presumably in a vain attempt to hold back a summer tide of people towing two of those suitcases as big as they are http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=4105

There's a recession on. I expect if you looked at British Rail's figures from the early 1990s, you would see exactly the same trends, falling first class travel, full stop, as businesses - who buy most FC^‡(resolve) tickets - cut back or go out of business altogether and commuter traffic into London drops off.

Do you think FGW are immune? If there's less money coming in from FC, they are going to look at their offer and it's unlikely to get more generous - as whatever 'freebies' are on offer are unlikely to make anything but a marginal difference to the numbers travelling FC. As far as I can recall, FA, your key reasons for paying the extra are a table and room to spread out or sleep - not whether there was a 'free' chilled Diet Coke.

Am I alone in finding this thread bizarre? Is it really that important? I'm afraid I just don't see it.