HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[Electric train]

Is there anything in the reports on how passengers arriving at Birmingham Curzon St make interchange for onward journeys in the Brum area?

There were plans 15 years ago for the Heartlands station in Birmingham, this was going to be in the Washwood Heath area, New Street Station is such a restrictive site lengthening platforms would be almost impossible without some major city center demolition. Birmingham needs a new station to act as a hub for the future northward high speed routes and potentially for the much longer aspiration of a high speed route to the South West and South Wales

[eightf48544]

I think i posted something about Heartlands in another thread saying I'd found an article on it in an April Rail Magazine. I thought it was their April Fool but was assurred that it was a genuine plan.

It would seem ideal for a high Speed Station being planned as through station serving both the Strechford Aston Line and the Midland with a West to North link off the Midland.

Another advantage is that would give a quicker through route to W&SR^‡(resolve) and a station in Birmingham with good onward connectons add HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) and it could be viable. Possibly served by either a shuttle from New Street or street trams from the city centre.

Not sure that a terminal station is the right thing for Brum.

The Germans built a new through station in Kassel on the High Speed line and bypassed the terminal Hbf station . It is served by street trams and Tram Trains running off the streets and onto the DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) lines via a link at the Hbf. 

[Electric train]

The Germans built a new through station in Kassel on the High Speed line and bypassed the terminal Hbf station . It is served by street trams and Tram Trains running off the streets and onto the DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) lines via a link at the Hbf. 

That is exactly the type of thinking we need to adopt, major hubs best placed for there HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) purpose with good links for other rail, public and road transport

[Chris from Nailsea]

BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) Newsnight video report:

All aboard? Parties disagree over high speed rail route

The government is recommending a new high-speed rail network, featuring 250mph trains on new line between London and Birmingham, with a future extension to northern England and Scotland.
But the idea has been on and off for five years and now there is political disagreement about routes, funding, and the environmental impact.
Newsnight's Kirsty Wark is joined by Transport Secretary Lord Adonis, Liberal Democrat Transport Spokesman Norman Baker and Shadow Transport Secretary Theresa Villiers to see how the parties line up.
Broadcast on Thursday 11 March 2010.

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Two visions to attract fast line trains to Nottingham

Officials in Nottinghamshire have differed over how they propose to bring a high speed rail link to the area.
On Thursday the government unveiled plans for a line to take 250mph trains from London to Birmingham, with a possible East Midlands extension.
But while the city council wants the line to come into central Nottingham, the county council said it favours a new out of town facility.
Detailed plans are not due to be finalised until 2011 at the earliest.
The new line could cut journeys from the region to London to under an hour, but it would cost billions of pounds and not start until after the Birmingham link - which itself has an earliest start date of 2017.
Officials in Nottinghamshire have said they are intent on working with developer HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) to make sure services would come to the county, but currently have separate visions of how to do it.
The county councillor responsible for transport, Richard Jackson, said: "I think the current train station could take some electrification, but for the high speed rail it would need to be another station altogether. What we would like to see is something similar to what has been suggested for Birmingham, which is a parkway type station on the outside of the city."
But Jane Urquhart, city councillor with responsibility for transport, said: "We are very keen, however, to start detailed work with government and HS2 to prove that Nottingham deserves a world class city centre high-speed rail interchange which will act as a sound, sustainable, and value for money investment. City centre stations provide around twice the economic benefits of out of town parkway facilities, and Nottingham is the largest destination on the existing Midland Mainline."

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the Buckingham Advertiser:

Readers have thrown their support behind our Save our Chilterns campaign against the proposed high-speed rail route through the district.
Last week we launched our campaign calling on the government to backtrack on plans to lay down the track for the London to Birmingham line through the Chalfonts, Amersham and Great Missenden.
If built, it will mean trains will hurtle through the Chilterns at 225mph every four minutes, tearing up the countryside and seeing some homes bulldozed. The government decides in 2011 whether to go ahead, while public consultation starts in the autumn. If approved, work costing between ^15-^19billion would start in 2019.
Since our announcement we have been inundated with messages from readers and here is just a sample of the responses.

[Electric train]

NIMBY with some very large back yards where most of use measure back yards on square yards they use acres.

This will rumble on for a long time to come

[TerminalJunkie]

[...] here is just a sample of the responses.

Let me guess: this "sample" contains none of the responses in favour of the new line?

This will rumble on for a long time to come

I thought the idea was for the rumble to whizz past as quickly as possible

[caliwag]

It really will not happen...nor is it necessary.  I believe things will change so much in the time it takes to get it through planning...the way people communicate and how/why people travel, it will just be abandonned...it's all short term politicing v reality...and those that could afford it will be working very much smarter...surely? 

[Chris from Nailsea]

From ThisIsLocalLondon:

Lord Rothschild opposes High Speed 2 train plan over its effect on the Chilterns

A descendent of the Rothschild dynasty has slammed plans to run a High Speed railway within a mile of his family^s historic home, Waddesdon Manor, it is reported today.
Lord Rothschild told The Sunday Times: ^I have serious concerns about the route which has been selected and its impact on Waddesdon Manor.
^We will carefully watch the progression of the consultation process and its eventual outcome.^
The home, east of Aylesbury, was donated to the National Trust and the paper reports the line will cut through a neighbouring 5,700-acre estate where Lord Rothschild lives.
The paper says this puts him ^at odds^ with Labour business secretary and friend Lord Mandelson.
It says Rothschild has employed a planning consultant to fight the plan, which would tunnel under old Amersham and cut through land north of Great Missenden.
The Sunday Times reports the route should follow the M1 corridor though engineers in the project believe this would be too expensive and lengthen journey times.
The Government will consult on cutting through the Chilterns later this year.
The report says it is hoped local celebrities including Fern Britton, Ozzy and Sharon Osbourne, Sophie Dahl and Sir David Jason will fight the plan.
Meanwhile, Aylesbury MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) David Lidington has reported from a meeting with transport chiefs that he held with Chesham and Amersham MP Cheryl Gillan.
He said: ^I can^t say that there was a meeting of minds but I do feel that I now have a somewhat better understanding of their thinking.^
Writing on his blog, Mr Lidington reported that consultation would take place from October to March and bosses said they are ^trying to engage seriously with local people^.
Yet Mr Lidington said: ^I said very directly that I thought that a six month period, including Christmas and the New Year, to look at the entire route from Euston to Staffordshire, would be inadequate for a proper consultation and that they risked adding to public cynicism about the exercise.^
It would be scrutinised by a committee of MPs instead of a planning inquiry with building projected start in 2017, he said.
The MP said it is ^clear that relatively little detailed work has yet been done^ on the impact on the environment.
A map of ^noise contours^ will be available at the October consultation ^ but details such as how noise will be blocked out would be considered by the committee of MPs, he reported.
The Conservative MP said: ^Both Cheryl and I made our dissatisfaction with this approach very clear. I believe that local people will expect to know very soon exactly what the likely impact on them would be in terms of noise and visual intrusion if this route were to proceed. I^m afraid that this part of the conversation reinforced my view that the publication of the route plan was rushed through for political motives before enough detailed work on environmental impact had been carried out.^
He reported that the chief engineer acknowledged ^trade-offs^ between the impact and benefits and a tunnel all the way under the Chilterns would be ^prohibitively expensive^.
Mr Lidington said: It seems to me that their reasons for rejecting other Chiltern routes, along the M40 corridor and along the West Coast Main Line were in the end down to the need for a lot more expensive tunnelling (under Wycombe or under stretches of Hertfordshire respectively) if those routes were to be developed.^
He reported that the M1 corridor plan was rejected because there were too many new homes and it would ^cause serious nuisance to very large numbers of residents^.

[Electric train]

See told you the NIMBY measure they backyards in acres

[Chris from Nailsea]

This story is also in Times Online:

Keep trains out of my 5,000-acre back yard

Lord Rothschild, the financier and a friend of Lord Mandelson, the business secretary, is leading a revolt against government plans for a 250mph railway line that will cut through swathes of the countryside.
The ^30 billion scheme from London to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds ^ the biggest rail project in Britain for more than 100 years ^ will crash through the Chilterns, passing via the back yards of a string of rich and famous residents.
Thousands of homeowners have already registered protests at the first leg of the proposed route to Birmingham, which they say will ruin the area^s natural beauty and calm.
When the line is complete there will be 18 trains an hour, running from 5am until midnight. Journey times between London and Birmingham will be reduced to 49 minutes from 1 hour 24 minutes.
Campaigners are enlisting the support of celebrities living along the planned route, who include Ozzy and Sharon Osbourne, the music personalities, Sophie Dahl, the former model turned television chef, and Sir David Jason, the actor. Rothschild, whose fortune is valued at ^360m, is likely to prove a formidable opponent. The proposed line will run within a mile of Waddesdon Manor and its 120-acre estate, in Buckinghamshire, the Rothschild family seat that was donated to the National Trust, and will cut directly through the neighbouring 5,700-acre estate where he lives. Plans show that a 3,281ft viaduct will have to be built on his land.
^I have serious concerns about the route which has been selected and its impact on Waddesdon Manor,^ said Rothschild. ^We will carefully watch the progression of the consultation process and its eventual outcome.^
His opposition puts him at odds with Mandelson, who has stayed at Rothschild^s villa in Corfu and last year attended a shooting party at Waddesdon.
Rothschild is working with an independent planning consultant to mount objections to the high-speed line, which will be submitted to the government^s consultation. He and the National Trust want the route to bypass the area altogether and follow the M1 corridor. ^It makes more sense to follow a route which has already been developed than to ruin the tranquillity of the Chilterns,^ said a source close to Rothschild.
However, engineers involved in the project believe that building the line alongside the M1 would require extensive tunnelling under Luton in Bedfordshire and other towns, adding billions to the bill. It would also increase journey times by 10 minutes.
The developer of High Speed 2, as the project is called, says it will mitigate its impact on the countryside by using tunnels and cuttings. But residents remain unimpressed.
A Facebook protest group has almost 9,000 members, while a petition on the Downing Street website has 6,800 signatures.
Liz Williams, a member of the South Northamptonshire Action Group, plans to walk the length of the line from Birmingham to London this summer to raise further awareness.
Her protest has the support of Geoffrey Palmer, the actor, who lives just a quarter of a mile from the proposed route.
Fern Britton, the television presenter, is also interested in Williams^s protest walk, as is Rupert Heseltine, the son of Lord Heseltine, the Tory former deputy prime minister.
While his father is in favour of the line, Rupert Heseltine is an outspoken opponent. His home near Banbury in Oxfordshire will be within two miles of the route. He said: ^This train line is going to leave a scar from London to Birmingham across the countryside. It will leave broken communities, distraught families and destroyed businesses. I have friends whose farms will be destroyed. This is not about me, it^s about communities that will see no benefit.^
If it goes ahead, the government will have to buy up hundreds of homes in the Chilterns through compulsory purchase orders before the project is finished in 2026. Until then, many homeowners are in limbo.
Adam Thomas, who is disabled, and his wife, Agnes, have spent ^150,000 making their home near Great Missenden, Buckinghamshire, wheelchair-friendly. Thomas said: ^d like Lord Adonis, the transport secretary, to come down and meet us. I think he would have a lot of sleepless nights if he knew the damage this has caused.^

[devon_metro]

Is HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) really needed though? Who is it going to benefit? London and Birmingham, even then it doesn't take you to the centres of the cities.

Perhaps the money would be far better spent nationwide.

[JayMac]

See told you the NIMBY measure they backyards in acres

I think the Rothschild's probably measure their back yard in square miles!

[Chris from Nailsea]

Fair comment: 5,700 acres is very nearly 9 square miles! 

(See http://www.metric-conversions.org/area/acres-to-square-miles.htm for those, like me, who are mathematically challenged!  )