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Author Topic: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion  (Read 400052 times)
Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #1425 on: August 01, 2023, 16:53:48 »

Whoever wins the next election, or doesn't, there are only three options for HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)):
  • Abandon it, leaving some very expensive tunnels and bridges
  • Get on with it
  • Do it half-heartedly, trying to minimise costs as much as possible, probably ending up with a not particularly fast line from approximately the West Midlands to somewhere that Ryanair might be persuaded to call London

Residents of Acton & Solihull are eagerly awaiting their new express trains which they have been advised will arrive sometime around 2040 (they were a little disappointed when they were told that referred to the year, not the time!)  Smiley
"Acton & Solihull Parkway is a railway station in the UK (United Kingdom). It is the only station on the UK's brand new HS2 line." (Wikipedia, 2049)
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grahame
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« Reply #1426 on: August 02, 2023, 08:14:48 »

From New Civil Engineer

Quote
HS2 (The next High Speed line(s))’s new terminus at Euston could be stripped back to a seven-platform station yet still face a £1bn over-spend.

The HS2 terminus, which had at one point expected to be built with 11 platforms, had one platform shaved off the plans in 2021.

According to documents leaked to the Sunday Telegraph, the new options outlined in an internal report written for the Department for Transport (DfT» (Department for Transport - about)) would see a further three platforms cut from the terminus. The DfT asked for new options for the station after it was revealed the cost to build the previous designs had risen to almost £5bn, approximately double the £2.6bn budget - at 2019 prices.
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bradshaw
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« Reply #1427 on: August 02, 2023, 08:50:09 »


William Barter makes the suggestion that it is the Government machinations that have caused the problem. Altering the scope, adding a development which is now unaffordable. Worth a read of his posts on the subject
https://twitter.com/williambarter1/status/1686375603484942336?s=61&t=VlafMC5gF9tidw36b1Y8JQ
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ChrisB
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« Reply #1428 on: August 02, 2023, 09:18:53 »

From New Civil Engineer

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HS2 (The next High Speed line(s))’s new terminus at Euston could be stripped back to a seven-platform station yet still face a £1bn over-spend.

The HS2 terminus, which had at one point expected to be built with 11 platforms, had one platform shaved off the plans in 2021.

According to documents leaked to the Sunday Telegraph, the new options outlined in an internal report written for the Department for Transport (DfT» (Department for Transport - about)) would see a further three platforms cut from the terminus. The DfT asked for new options for the station after it was revealed the cost to build the previous designs had risen to almost £5bn, approximately double the £2.6bn budget - at 2019 prices.

That's the end of any terminating non-HS2 trains at OOC (Old Oak Common (depot)) then, with the removal of those platforms. Just the through lines for the GWML (Great Western Main Line) and HS2 terminators.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #1429 on: August 03, 2023, 15:16:19 »

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HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) is making Britain an international laughing stock

* Faster journeys between London and Birmingham were always the least important aspect of HS2
* We have ensured that infrastructure is a sector without pride or prestige because we prefer to build nothing
* No sensible company would want to go anywhere near a major UK (United Kingdom) transport project

It’s finally official: HS2 is ‘unachievable’, according to the UK’s Infrastructure and Projects Authority. That doesn’t mean the project isn’t still happening, or that it won’t cost us billions, it just means that years – decades, probably – ahead of its launch we know it isn’t going to deliver what we need from it.

What’s worse is that we’re going to learn all of the wrong lessons from its failure. Already the people who have reliably ensured HS2 wouldn’t work are saying that the overspends and reduced expectations show what they said all along – we should never have started it, we didn’t need it, local rail improvements were the way to go, and so on.

All of this is complete rubbish, as anyone who has to frequent either the East or West coast mainlines should already know. Both lines are absolutely creaking under the load of commuters they already bear, and signalling failures or some other problem routinely clogs up not just intercity travel but local commuters, who are packed onto the same train lines.

This was the reason for building a new, dedicated high-speed line – for intercity trains only. The name was always misleading, instead it is about capacity. A new dedicated line would mean that intercity trains could travel faster and more reliably.

Crucially, it would serve the destinations of both the east and west coast main lines, which then would be entirely free from high speed intercity trains – meaning that they would create much more local and commuter capacity, for better trains and more frequent services.

HS2 was the local infrastructure investment its detractors said they backed, or that it was crowding out. The problem is that it now won’t deliver on most of that. The least important aspect of HS2 was a faster journey time between London and Birmingham, and that’s possibly the only bit we’ll actually get.

...continues

Source: CAPX, Centre for Policy Studies Think Tank

CPS describes itself as a centre-right think tank
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #1430 on: August 03, 2023, 15:32:07 »

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The problems with HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) are all problems of government more than they are problems of delivery. The way the UK (United Kingdom) Treasury works out its spending – especially on investment – is genuinely ridiculous and anathema to long-term thinking. Because spending is worked out in ‘envelopes’ of certain numbers of years, there is an obsession with working out what the five-year figure is, rather than looking at what will put the UK in the best footing in 20 to 30 years’ time.
Not only are our engineers overruled by bean-counters, those bean counters don't even stick around to harvest the beans.
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« Reply #1431 on: August 03, 2023, 16:31:00 »

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The problems with HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) are all problems of government more than they are problems of delivery. The way the UK (United Kingdom) Treasury works out its spending – especially on investment – is genuinely ridiculous and anathema to long-term thinking. Because spending is worked out in ‘envelopes’ of certain numbers of years, there is an obsession with working out what the five-year figure is, rather than looking at what will put the UK in the best footing in 20 to 30 years’ time.
Not only are our engineers overruled by bean-counters, those bean counters don't even stick around to harvest the beans.

Who would you say is responsible for the cost rising from £33 billion to over £100 billion before the brakes were put on, and why do you think HS2 enjoys so little public support?
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #1432 on: August 03, 2023, 18:20:28 »

Large infrastructure projects are always disliked. They cause massive disruption while under construction, and permanently disfigure known and loved landscapes and urban areas which people live and work in. And then bring in new people, alter established habits, and so on. People have been objecting to railways on the same grounds for 200 years. They object to new housing on the same grounds. And they are all valid reasons.
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« Reply #1433 on: August 03, 2023, 22:47:56 »

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The problems with HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) are all problems of government more than they are problems of delivery. The way the UK (United Kingdom) Treasury works out its spending – especially on investment – is genuinely ridiculous and anathema to long-term thinking. Because spending is worked out in ‘envelopes’ of certain numbers of years, there is an obsession with working out what the five-year figure is, rather than looking at what will put the UK in the best footing in 20 to 30 years’ time.
Not only are our engineers overruled by bean-counters, those bean counters don't even stick around to harvest the beans.

Who would you say is responsible for the cost rising from £33 billion to over £100 billion before the brakes were put on, and why do you think HS2 enjoys so little public support?

Two major reasons for the increase in cost:

1) Every time you change your mind on a project it costs more. The later you change your mind the more it costs.  Tunnels were added at late stage, there were arguments about whether it should go via Heathrow. The most recent is Euston.  Changed once to reduce disruption and reduce cost, then found it would still cost too much. Politicians have been meddling with the specification for HS2 since the start time and time again. 

2) Also it was politicians who deemed that the railway should be able to run without the need for maintenance at night. So the contractors had to guarantee that the earthworks will not settle.  As a result every embankment is essentially a viaduct with earth fill under it. And ballasted track is not possible so slab track has to be used.

Just two examples as to why HS2 and similar large infrastructure projects go over their original budget. 
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« Reply #1434 on: August 04, 2023, 09:10:15 »

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The problems with HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) are all problems of government more than they are problems of delivery. The way the UK (United Kingdom) Treasury works out its spending – especially on investment – is genuinely ridiculous and anathema to long-term thinking. Because spending is worked out in ‘envelopes’ of certain numbers of years, there is an obsession with working out what the five-year figure is, rather than looking at what will put the UK in the best footing in 20 to 30 years’ time.
Not only are our engineers overruled by bean-counters, those bean counters don't even stick around to harvest the beans.

Who would you say is responsible for the cost rising from £33 billion to over £100 billion before the brakes were put on, and why do you think HS2 enjoys so little public support?

A large part of the cost increase is due to inflation, HS2 has had increases in fuel and energy costs, material costs and wage increases.
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« Reply #1435 on: August 04, 2023, 10:27:07 »


Who would you say is responsible for the cost rising from £33 billion to over £100 billion before the brakes were put on, and why do you think HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) enjoys so little public support?

Whoever thought up the bizarre way we do infrastructure. The public wanted a solution to the vast overcrowding on the east and west coast mainlines, more local services within those corridors, and more freight carried by rail rather than road. They also wanted it to be electric. Nobody said that there wasn't a need for more capacity. The government had a think about it, and said HS2 was the best way of doing it. Some of the public, not a very big proportion, said that wasn't what they meant and started sellotaping themselves to trees and digging holes. They weren't really responsible for the overspending. It cost a few million to sort them out, but the total is probably statistically zero.

This began under a Labour government in 2009, addressing that very question of capacity, and coming up with three routes. The year before, the Economist had published a report showing strong public support for high speed rail as an alternative to internal flights, road pricing etc. HS2 wasn't really on the political stage when the 2010 election happened, as very little that a government proposes in its final year is taken seriously, except tax cuts. The coalition government of 2010 continued the project as it was one of the few things the Tories and Lib Dems agreed upon. The Tories had supported it in opposition, although they wanted a link to Heathrow. Whether it was for the same reasons or for business on one side and environment on the other doesn't matter - it was enough that they agreed and carried on. HS2 had broad cross-party support, with some dissent. I would say that public support was reasonably good, apart from along the proposed route. There were endangered species along it, mainly bats, newts and MPs (Member of Parliament) with marginal constituencies, plus a few newspaper editors living along the way, so lobbying began to abolish the plan, moved the route, put it underground, whatever. At the time, the details weren't settled, but the cost was based on the original plan, and with a very optimistic view, just like all other rail projects. The Mawhinney review was commissioned, which sensibly recommended against routing via Heathrow but was otherwise in favour. The plans went out to consultation, and this was when the protest groups began to appear in earnest. Legal actions followed, which were highly successful from the point of view of the lawyers involved, resulting in massive fees all round.

The first big extra was the idea of putting the railway through tunnels through environmentally sensitive areas. That is such an obviously good idea for something that will be around for hundreds of years that it should have been part of the original idea. It probably wasn't included in the first place just to keep the estimated cost low. Less clever are the major changes that have been made, such as the connection to WCML (West Coast Main Line), purely as a matter of political expedient. Whether it was to win a marginal at the next election or get a local MP onside for a crucial vote, it has nothing to do with engineering and should not have been allowed to happen, but it was. What looks like a small change is in fact major, and means that a large part of the route has to be redesigned. It also eats into the BCR (Benefit Cost Ratio).

After that, HS2 became an election issue. It wasn't a huge national one in 2015, but did have politicians speaking in vague terms for a while, until David Cameron succeeded in shooing the Lib Dems out of the door. After that, though, the serious work in parliament and in hi-vis on the ground began, and HS2 assumed its place as a political hot potato, alongside Hinkley C and Heathrow's third runway. When Cameron stepped down after losing the EU» (European Union - about) referendum, candidates for PM's job found political capital was to be gained by hinting at wholesale changes. They didn't do much at the time, because there was a new kid on the block in the form of Brexit. Also, we seemed to be short of cash as a nation, although HS2 was to be paid for by loans as it went along so shouldn't have had a major effect on the books. It was cleverly removed from the 2019 election by the commissioning of the Oakervee review, which added delay, cost and uncertainty, but meant that the Prime Minister didn't have to offer an opinion nor nail his colours to any particular mast. Delays always mean extra costs for inflation as well as design. Big delays mean laying off and rehiring.

And so to the present "cost saving" proposals. To layman, 11 platforms seems a lot for a terminus, and 10 sounds remarkably similar. To a designer or an engineer, they will be hugely different numbers, and 7 will mean a major redesign of how the services will operate. I wouldn't mind betting that any savings in the building of the terminus are more than outweighed by extra costs elsewhere, and that if Euston ends up with 7 platforms, another four will have to be built almost immediately after a shopping mall has been put up on the vacant lot.

The obvious answer is to not do big infrastructure projects in the first place, and cope with increasingly overcrowded railways and the knock-on effects on traffic. We could do the same with housing, which would be a boon to the tent industry. The more sensible way would be to get all the consultation and arguing out of the way before handing out shovels, and having a plan carved in granite that cannot be changed other than by a general election with that as the sole issue. It isn't just HS2 that should be done this way - Portishead is merely a smaller version of the same thing, affected by the same malaise on a more local scale.
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« Reply #1436 on: August 04, 2023, 10:49:02 »

Magnificently summed up as usual, Tony.

Perhaps we should have adopted ‘The Chinese Way’ (as Level 42 once sung about!).  It would have come in at or under budget, probably delivered early, and as long as there weren’t any massive pile-ups in the first year or two, would no doubt have been a roaring success delivering an economic return of 8%, like their own High Speed network does. 

Locals may of had their lives completely ruined of course, but they wouldn’t have had much of a voice.
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« Reply #1437 on: August 04, 2023, 11:11:36 »

As for opposition from Swampy the Treehugger and Mrs Blue-rinse Nimby (who probably have far more in common than either dare admit), these were predictable enough that the costs could have been (maybe were?) factored in at the beginning.
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« Reply #1438 on: August 04, 2023, 12:33:29 »

Magnificently summed up as usual, Tony.

Perhaps we should have adopted ‘The Chinese Way’ (as Level 42 once sung about!).  It would have come in at or under budget, probably delivered early, and as long as there weren’t any massive pile-ups in the first year or two, would no doubt have been a roaring success delivering an economic return of 8%, like their own High Speed network does. 

Locals may of had their lives completely ruined of course, but they wouldn’t have had much of a voice.


A few years ago, there was a small concert at Tiverton Parkway station, and I took a Chinese house guest along. This was not long after the first IETs (Intercity Express Train) had begun service, and one rolled into the station before the music started. She thought it looked very nice, and asked how fast they went. After a quick mental calculation, I told her about 200 km/h. She asked "Do you also have high-speed trains?" She lives in Shenzhen, just over the border from Hong Kong. It's 1370 miles from Beijing. The train takes just over 8 hours, with tickets from under £30. They do it different over there.

As for opposition from Swampy the Treehugger and Mrs Blue-rinse Nimby (who probably have far more in common than either dare admit), these were predictable enough that the costs could have been (maybe were?) factored in at the beginning.

The PR (Public Relations) could have been handled better too. A lot of the route follows old closed alignments, so could have been sold as reopening. Social media wasn't so big back then, but was certainly around. These days, I get posts via Facebook, Twitter and the rest plugging things like wind turbines, massive batteries, hydrogen, huge expanses of solar panels and other things I am highly unlikely to ever buy. It isn't advertising as such, it's softening up an army of people willing to believe things that you wouldn't get away with putting in a newspaper advert. A pretty picture can convince where science can't. The worst ones are like those adverts on ITV3 of an afternoon along the lines of "Send money now, or the puppy gets it". Government usually botches attempts at convincing people because it looks political, and facts seldom speak for themselves these days. The protest industry may have to reset, because its efforts have so far succeeded mainly in bringing about more draconian legislation, with actions now actually having consequences. Those chaps who climbed up the motorway gantry and the ones who tried to wreck the police station in Bristol actually looked surprised when they were given lengthy prison terms.
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #1439 on: August 04, 2023, 15:26:13 »

The protest industry may have to reset, because its efforts have so far succeeded mainly in bringing about more draconian legislation, with actions now actually having consequences. Those chaps who climbed up the motorway gantry and the ones who tried to wreck the police station in Bristol actually looked surprised when they were given lengthy prison terms.
The people who need resetting, judging by yesterday's events in Yorkshire, are security. Even though the house was empty, it's amazing that protesters were able to walk up to the PM's door, knock on it and announce a protest, then climb up to the roof. Black and white peaked caps may roll.

Sorry, no railway content there, let's get back to HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)).
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