HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[Electric train]

BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) Breakfast News and website presenting the scrapping of the line to Manchester as a done deal this morning - to be announced this afternoon.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66998692

Interesting brief from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) yesterday on the GWR engineering works and plans for works and service at Old Oak Common.  Lots of disruption over coming years, platforms on all four lines, but it sounds unlikely that everything (especially long distance) will stop there. Especially if (!!) it only goes as far as Birmingham, why stop trains from South Wales, Bristol, Taunton, Oxford, Reading  there when there are other direct trains from those places to Birmingham?

Going by the current Government record to sell off Paddington station as a development opportunity for another purpose in a historic setting and just keep 2 or 3 platforms for the odd terminating service ..................... not been done before Windsor General !

[red cuillen]

Number 10 tweets a wild and misleading graphic. Small in the scheme of today's wildness: the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), for the moment, seems to believe that there really is no rail infrastructure between Cullompton and Wellington and marks the link there as a new line.

Mark

https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1709553565398683743
[/quote

Pretty obviously really....... 4 TRACKS NOW!

[ChrisB]

Interesting brief from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) yesterday on the GWR engineering works and plans for works and service at Old Oak Common.  Lots of disruption over coming years, platforms on all four lines, but it sounds unlikely that everything (especially long distance) will stop there. Especially if (!!) it only goes as far as Birmingham, why stop trains from South Wales, Bristol, Taunton, Oxford, Reading  there when there are other direct trains from those places to Birmingham?

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) trains will still run to all proposed destinations, but join the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) earlier, to the north of Birmingham Interchange. So all that work at OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) still needed.

[ChrisB]

Re Bristol. the full document states -

71.We will deliver rail improvements in the South West. We will reopen stations and reintroduce rail passenger services to Wellington and Cullompton, reinstate five miles of track and a new station at Tavistock to connect it with Plymouth. Alongside this, we will put aside funding to complete the South West Resilience Programme in full, delivering on our commitment to the South West to make the vital route between Exeter and Plymouth through Dawlish more resilient in the face of extreme weather.

74.We will boost funding to the West of England Combined Authority by £100 million. 50 The funding could be used for an extension of MetroWest to the south – covering Weston-super-Mare, Taunton/Exeter, and Worle/Weston-super-Mare Parkway. The authority could also start Temple Meads passenger and capacity enhancements, step-free access across the network and complete electrification between Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway and Chippenham.

So, overall, not too bad for the SouthWest.

[chuffed]

Call me cynical, but by the time all these schemes come to fruition...... don't forget 3 miles of track to Portishead has taken 20 plus years and is still 3 years away.....and has been subjected to  7.5km of paperwork and too many reviews and revised costings to count.....I can't see much loose change from £36 billion!

[Electric train]

Re Bristol. the full document states -

71.We will deliver rail improvements in the South West. We will reopen stations and reintroduce rail passenger services to Wellington and Cullompton, reinstate five miles of track and a new station at Tavistock to connect it with Plymouth. Alongside this, we will put aside funding to complete the South West Resilience Programme in full, delivering on our commitment to the South West to make the vital route between Exeter and Plymouth through Dawlish more resilient in the face of extreme weather.

74.We will boost funding to the West of England Combined Authority by £100 million. 50 The funding could be used for an extension of MetroWest to the south – covering Weston-super-Mare, Taunton/Exeter, and Worle/Weston-super-Mare Parkway. The authority could also start Temple Meads passenger and capacity enhancements, step-free access across the network and complete electrification between Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway and Chippenham.

So, overall, not too bad for the SouthWest.

It is all talk at the moment when you see the scheme being delivered then celebrate

[4064ReadingAbbey]

OK - cancelled past Birmingham, but re-instated to Euston under different management.

... with the accompanying statement that surplus land at Euston will be used for 'Thousands of homes'.

That surely means the line will run to Euston but the provision at the terminus will hard wire in nothing to handle services from HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) phases 2 and 3. Salting HS2's earth. This is very bad.

Mark

Also, phase 2a (Birmingham to Crewe) - which has received royal assent - will not proceed and the intention is to quickly dispose of the land acquired for it. Another case of the government bypassing parliament.

Mark

An Act of Parliament enables the building of the railway - it does not, and never has done, require it to be built.

Your conclusion is incorrect.

[4064ReadingAbbey]

Interesting brief from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) yesterday on the GWR engineering works and plans for works and service at Old Oak Common.  Lots of disruption over coming years, platforms on all four lines, but it sounds unlikely that everything (especially long distance) will stop there. Especially if (!!) it only goes as far as Birmingham, why stop trains from South Wales, Bristol, Taunton, Oxford, Reading  there when there are other direct trains from those places to Birmingham?

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) trains will still run to all proposed destinations, but join the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) earlier, to the north of Birmingham Interchange. So all that work at OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) still needed.

I don't follow the conclusion. As HS2 will end at Handsacre Junction the journey times to points north will be longer than they otherwise would have been. This means that time savings made by routing via OOC rather than the existing routes will be less. The implication is that fewer people will route this way. So the original longer distance passenger flow assumptions will no longer be valid which calls into question why all main line, long distance trains should all stop at OOC. This conclusion is not applicable to the Elizabeth line services on the GW^▸ (Great Western) Relief Lines offering a suburban service along the Thames Valley.

[ChrisB]

Your forgetting the hand of the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)...

The idea was that HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) would a) be as quick-ish than WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) and b) create paths on WCML that slower trains (more stops) & more freight can use.

So route the expresses via HS2 to Birmingham, Liverpool & Manchester via OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)), and still create those paths for slower trains. So those on HS2 will still take less time that the fastest on WCML, but maybe take 20 mins longer. Achieves the original idea, just takes slightly longer. 

[didcotdean]

Number 10 tweets a wild and misleading graphic. Small in the scheme of today's wildness: the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), for the moment, seems to believe that there really is no rail infrastructure between Cullompton and Wellington and marks the link there as a new line.

Mark

https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1709553565398683743

I haven't gone through it myself but have seen elsewhere two examples where suggested future works in the documentation produced has been done already: extending Manchester Metrolink tram to Manchester Airport (completed in 2014) and the Nottingham tram system to Clifton South (completed in 2015). Doesn't seem to be  a document produced with care.

[ellendune]

So route the expresses via HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) to Birmingham, Liverpool & Manchester via OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)), and still create those paths for slower trains. So those on HS2 will still take less time that the fastest on WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line), but maybe take 20 mins longer. Achieves the original idea, just takes slightly longer. 

But HS2 was never about speed; it was about capacity.  The capacity constraints north of Hansacre Junction means there is no increase in capacity to Crewe, Manchester, Liverpool and the North West and does nothing for the East Midlands and the North East.  

So it does not achieve the original idea at all.

What they will have done is built the most expensive part of the line, which due to to their own incompetence (e.g. transferring all risks to the contractor and continually meddling with the project) will be at a grossly inflated price, and achieved virtually none of the benefit and certainly no benefit to the north!  I predict that the Benefit Cost Ratio will be well below 1.0.  

Still when all that money is written off as waste, the BCR^▸ (Benefit Cost Ratio) of any new proposal to complete the line will look much better. Especially if the lessons on delivery of Phase 1 are learnt.  The simple way to control costs is:

1) Select the route and don't change it.
2) Design it properly so everyone knows what is required.  
3) Tender it with a conventional sharing of risk.
4) Build it.  

[Mark A]

Also, phase 2a (Birmingham to Crewe) - which has received royal assent - will not proceed and the intention is to quickly dispose of the land acquired for it. Another case of the government bypassing parliament.

An Act of Parliament enables the building of the railway - it does not, and never has done, require it to be built.

Your conclusion is incorrect.
[/quote]

I've not said that though. It's that the legislation is the product of many people of expertise, and then been examined by parliament who have passed the enabling legislation for that phase of the line, and this has then been overturned by what increasingly looks to be a very small number of people (it appears the decision taken without reference to either Network Rail or the Department for Transport).

Here's a bit of a read on implications of cancelling, with the emphasis on property subject to blight or compulsory purchase.

Mark

https://excellolaw.co.uk/hs2-phase-2b-cancellation-unravelling-a-decade-of-challenges-and-losses/

[Mark A]

Your forgetting the hand of the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)...

The idea was that HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) would a) be as quick-ish than WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) and b) create paths on WCML that slower trains (more stops) & more freight can use.

So route the expresses via HS2 to Birmingham, Liverpool & Manchester via OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)), and still create those paths for slower trains. So those on HS2 will still take less time that the fastest on WCML, but maybe take 20 mins longer. Achieves the original idea, just takes slightly longer. 

Alas, given 6 HS2 platforms at Euston, that's probably a non-starter. Also, Network Rail (who weren't privy to the decision to can phase 2a from Birmingham to Crewe) would be the ones to pronounce on whether the classic lines have any capacity over that length.

Mark

[grahame]

Going by the current Government record to sell off Paddington station as a development opportunity for another purpose in a historic setting and just keep 2 or 3 platforms for the odd terminating service ..................... not been done before Windsor General !

Or ... Holborn Viaduct, or the Midland Suburban traffic at St Pancras main shed given over to International, with the Midland Main line apologising as it almost gets there!

[Electric train]

Your forgetting the hand of the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)...

The idea was that HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) would a) be as quick-ish than WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) and b) create paths on WCML that slower trains (more stops) & more freight can use.

So route the expresses via HS2 to Birmingham, Liverpool & Manchester via OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)), and still create those paths for slower trains. So those on HS2 will still take less time that the fastest on WCML, but maybe take 20 mins longer. Achieves the original idea, just takes slightly longer. 

Alas, given 6 HS2 platforms at Euston, that's probably a non-starter. Also, Network Rail (who weren't privy to the decision to can phase 2a from Birmingham to Crewe) would be the ones to pronounce on whether the classic lines have any capacity over that length.

Mark

Be interesting to see the impact on the WCML CP 7 plan, some substantial parts were linked to HS2, just cancelling the CP7 works will have an impact on the capacity of the existing railway, but I suspect the DfT will want some substantial WCNL CP7 budget cuts