'Rail penalty fares to soar under Government plans' from the Telegraph (7/9/09)

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the Telegraph:

Fines imposed on rail passengers travelling with the wrong ticket are to more than double under plans drawn up by the Department for Transport.

The changes will push up the penalty fare from ^20 to ^50, or double the cost of a single ticket, if it is greater. Aimed at tackling fare dodgers, the scheme will also hit passengers who move into first class compartments because standard class is full, and even people who buy a ticket for one train operator on a given route but inadvertently travel with a competitor company. Even seeing somebody off without a platform ticket in so-called Compulsory Ticket Areas - which include London station Marylebone and Snow Hill in Birmingham - could lead to a ^50 fine.

The plans to push up penalty fares are contained in a Department for Transport consultation document and legislation will be required before the new rates come into force. They come at a time when train operators have been told that they will have to cut commuter fares from the beginning of next year, and are looking to recoup revenue in the recession. Passenger numbers on key routes is thought to have been hit, as the financial crisis takes a disproportionate toll on white collar workers.

One train operator. East Midlands Trains, has just announced a 145 per cent fare rise for some of its passengers, by imposing new ticket restrictions.

Ashwin Kumar, Passenger Focus director, said: ^We accept the principle of Penalty Fares but it is vital that train companies provide adequate retail facilities to allow passengers to buy their tickets in plenty of time before their train departs from the station.^

Stephen Joseph, executive director of the Campaign for Better Transport, also voiced alarm at the scale of the increases. "While it is absolutely right that people who travel illegally without any intention of paying a fare are penalised, there is a danger that we are making the railways much too draconian," he said.

The penalty fare scheme is operated by a number of train operators. Those who participate in the scheme include First Capital Connect, First Great Western, National Express East Anglia, South West Trains, London Midland, Southern and Southeastern. However, within the scheme operators take a different approach to passengers who "upgrade" to first class when standard class is full.

First Capital Connect will normally impose a penalty fare while London Midland and Southern will normally offer passengers the opportunity to pay the difference between the two fares.

The planned increases were condemned by Bob Crow, general secretary of the Rail, Maritime and Transport union. "We already have examples of staff being put under huge pressure to deliver more penalty fares and these proposals will tighten the screw on both our members and the travelling public. This is all about the train operators milking the last drop of profit out of the franchises and introducing a target culture similar to parking enforcement on the streets."

The rises were described as "outrageous" by Gerry Doherty, general secretary of the Transport and Salaried Staffs Association. "This is another way of picking passengers' pockets, like increasing off peak fares and car park charges. With the closure of many ticket offices in the recession, more and more passengers are finding it increasingly difficult to find the correct fare on a machine. They now face being heavily penalised for that through no fault of their own."

The Government's plans were angrily condemned by Norman Baker, the Liberal Democrats' transport spokesman. "This is a very significant increase without any evidence to justify it. The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) holds no information on how much has been raised in fines and under what circumstances. So on what basis can they argue that penalty fares should be more than doubled?"

The Association of Train Operating Companies denied that ticket inspectors - known as revenue protection staff - were set penalty fare targets. He also defended the planned increases. "Millions of pounds are lost every year through fare dodging ^ this is money that should be going back into improving trains and stations to make sure that passengers get the service they expect and deserve. It^s the vast majority of the passengers that ends up paying for the few who think that the rules don^t apply to them. It^s proposed that the penalty fare for people who pay within 21 days rises by ^5 to ^25. This would still compare favourably to a parking ticket, a speeding ticket or an on-the-spot fine. The new system would bring train stations into line with the [^50] penalty fares charged by the Underground in London."

A DfT spokesman said: ^This consultation will give interested parties the opportunity to comment on how the rail industry handles this important revenue protection policy, but no firm decision has been taken.^

[paul7575]

From the Telegraph:

Fines imposed on rail passengers travelling with the wrong ticket are to more than double under plans drawn up by the Department for Transport.

It^s proposed that the penalty fare for people who pay within 21 days rises by ^5 to ^25. This would still compare favourably to a parking ticket, a speeding ticket or an on-the-spot fine. The new system would bring train stations into line with the [^50] penalty fares charged by the Underground in London."

Once you strip out the waffle it is common sense to have the same rules on all penalty fare systems. The standard 50% discount within 21 days is exactly the same procedure as local authority parking penalties, so why not.

Manchester's Metrolink uses ^100 with a reduction to ^50 within 21 days - that's pretty extreme though surely?  The other problem is that the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) let the ^10 PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) remain unchanged for all those years, so the increase to ^20 seemed large, apparently because they had to involve parliament to change it. Surely the PF value should just be indexed and rise gradually like normal fares do?

Paul

[devon_metro]

To be honest, what is the problem if it was ^1000?

If you don't buy a ticket and do not have a legit reason for not having one, why shouldn't you be fined!

If the penalty was larger, everybody would buy the tickets!

[moonrakerz]

To be honest, what is the problem if it was ^1000?

If you don't buy a ticket and do not have a legit reason for not having one, why shouldn't you be fined!

If the penalty was larger, everybody would buy the tickets!

Didn't we have this self-same discussion a couple of months back after some complained it was "unfair" to be "fined" when travelling on a student ticket when their card had expired 3 weeks previously ?

[John R]

To be honest, what is the problem if it was ^1000?

If you don't buy a ticket and do not have a legit reason for not having one, why shouldn't you be fined!

If the penalty was larger, everybody would buy the tickets!

Judging by Alan Williams'  column now and again in Modern Railways (and nobody could accuse him of being a fare dodger or sympathetic to their cause), SWT^▸ (South West Trains) penalise a lot of passengers who inadvertantly find themselves on a train without a ticket or a correct ticket. The industry needs to find a balanced response. SWT's attitude, together with a ^50 fine, would not be a proportionate reponse to the problem. I suspect the House of Commons will vote the motion down.   

[Btline]

What a load of cr*p! (the article)

If there are no facilities for buying tickets you won't get a penalty fare.

If there are, and you don't buy a ticket, then you deserve to be fined! Why not make it ^1000 as D/M says?

As for "This is another way of picking passengers' pockets" - what a load of bull! How is penalty fareing a dodger picking the passengers pockets? Surely it is helping most law abiding people by ensure that they don't pay more for the dodgers!!

[John R]

Would you advocate a fine of ^1000 if drivers were caught doing 1mph above the speed limit? Or maybe for dropping a crisp on the pavement? Sanctions need to be appropriate and proportionate to the situation.

I can imagine the situation if the 4 japanese tourists who apparently recently found themselves unwittingly on a XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) train between Reading and Basingtoke on a SWT^▸ (South West Trains) groupsave had been summarily fined ^4000 between them.

   

[vacman]

The arguement that Penalty fares are used to "milk" passengers is flawed, Penalty fares admin is dealt with by an outside company and it costs the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) around ^15 to process each one, Penalty fares are genuinely there as a deterrent, and what better deterrent than ^50.00 for a short journey? All RP staff (FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) are all allowed to use their discretion when issuing PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'s. It's simple buy a ticket and you will never have to face the threat of one, and for those of you that are always running late then tough, get to the station earlier, if your running late to park your car do you just go off without putting a ticket in your car???

[vacman]

Would you advocate a fine of ^1000 if drivers were caught doing 1mph above the speed limit? Or maybe for dropping a crisp on the pavement? Sanctions need to be appropriate and proportionate to the situation.

I can imagine the situation if the 4 japanese tourists who apparently recently found themselves unwittingly on a XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) train between Reading and Basingtoke on a SWT^▸ (South West Trains) groupsave had been summarily fined ^4000 between them.

   

So your comparing fare evasion to dropping a crisp on the pavement or going 1 mph over the speed limit?

[John R]

No, I'm suggesting that, as that very respected rail commentator Alan Williams has said on many occasions, there are circumstances when completely honest and law abiding passengers find themselves on a train without a ticket (or a valid ticket). Whether it be through the inability of the ticket machine to sell them a ticket for some reason, or another reason.

Would you suggest the Japanese tourists were deliberately trying to evade paying the correct fare? 

   

[vacman]

No, I'm suggesting that, as that very respected rail commentator Alan Williams has said on many occasions, there are circumstances when completely honest and law abiding passengers find themselves on a train without a ticket (or a valid ticket). Whether it be through the inability of the ticket machine to sell them a ticket for some reason, or another reason.

Would you suggest the Japanese tourists were deliberately trying to evade paying the correct fare? 

   

On the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) penalty fares staff briefing it states that discretion should be used when dealing with Foreign tourists, elderly or disabled passengers and minors, Penalty fares arent as black and white as the media would like you to think, also, you can appeal against penalty fares.

There are circumstances when people get prosecuted for dropping fag buts on pavements or for not displaying car park tickets "properly", at the end of the day ignorance is no excuse!

[Btline]

Firstly, going 1 mph over the speed limit will not get you fined (unless you are "caught" doing 6 mph in a 5 mph zone)

Secondly, walking past the ticket office is a different degree to going 1 mph over the speed limit.

Thirdly, as Vacman said, discretion should be used, so elderly or foregin people who can't work machines are not fined. And if the office is closed/ doesn't exist, then penalty fares don't apply.

Finally, I think D/M and I were both exaggerating, making the point: "just buy a ticket".

[Mookiemoo]

To be honest, what is the problem if it was ^1000?

If you don't buy a ticket and do not have a legit reason for not having one, why shouldn't you be fined!

If the penalty was larger, everybody would buy the tickets!

Didn't we have this self-same discussion a couple of months back after some complained it was "unfair" to be "fined" when travelling on a student ticket when their card had expired 3 weeks previously ?

I think you will find my question was a hypothetical one bearing in mind if my mother hadnt been done I would have forgotten mine was expiring!

[Mookiemoo]

The arguement that Penalty fares are used to "milk" passengers is flawed, Penalty fares admin is dealt with by an outside company and it costs the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) around ^15 to process each one, Penalty fares are genuinely there as a deterrent, and what better deterrent than ^50.00 for a short journey? All RP staff (FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) are all allowed to use their discretion when issuing PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'s. It's simple buy a ticket and you will never have to face the threat of one, and for those of you that are always running late then tough, get to the station earlier, if your running late to park your car do you just go off without putting a ticket in your car???

errr........yep

[Mookiemoo]

Firstly, going 1 mph over the speed limit will not get you fined (unless you are "caught" doing 6 mph in a 5 mph zone)

Secondly, walking past the ticket office is a different degree to going 1 mph over the speed limit.

Thirdly, as Vacman said, discretion should be used, so elderly or foregin people who can't work machines are not fined. And if the office is closed/ doesn't exist, then penalty fares don't apply.

Finally, I think D/M and I were both exaggerating, making the point: "just buy a ticket".

And then you get my POV - I still fail to see what is wrong with wanting to buy a ticket on the train if you have no intention to not pay.  The problem is one of the following:

(1)  there is not a 100% guarantee of a ticket check - if there were then there is no issue with buying on train.  If no ticket and no funds = evasion.  If willing to buy = no issue.  Sorry - that requires more staff......

(2) Have a self validating system where you can buy 10 open returns for the same price as a one off - you have to validate the ticket in a machine before use.  IF you get caught, the fine is in the thousands.........

Either of those give flexibility to the passenger without - and yes im sorry some of us do not have 15 minutes in a day to queue at a ticket machine/counter -  (of course if the journey was half an hour less like it used to be I'd have double that!|) - well cometimes we do but on the occasin we need to, sods law says we dont!