Remove First Class?

[whole diary]

[Tim]

On the market segmentation point, you can (and do) of course have this even without the class split (AP vs Open return, season tickets, cheaper fares for the young and old and groups) and I am sure that when used properly it dpes lead to greater passenger numbers and overall revenue increases. 

1. Deliberate nobbling of the lower-cost option to preserve the difference of the premium product. It has certainly happened with computer printers, but has it happened with rail? One example might be the exclusion of passengers on standard tickets from dining. I'm sure someone can think of better examples.

Has this happened?  SC has improved in some ways (at seat sockets for example).  The only major worsening of SC accomodation has been less room per seat - perhaps the existance of FC^‡(resolve) has something to do with this.

2. Compromises in rolling stock design. Ever since the Mk3 coach was designed, pax in standard have had to put up with obstructed views as the bodyshell was designed for proper seat/window alignment in first.

I've never realised this before!  Of course the orginal Mk3 was far better for SC window alignment than almost anything since.   

[eightf48544]

On the question of seat alingment Ian Walmsley came up with a novel solution in one of his recent Modern Railways articles.

As a great advocate of loco hauled trains rather than glorified multiple units (IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)), he came up with a coach designed based on seating modules with a window. Thus First was wider than standard each coach then had so many modules to make it around 23 mtrs (not 26 as IEP). But the first and standard coaches would be slightly different lengths.

His argument is that with modern contruction techniques and the number of each required (+ 1000 first) the cost of construction would be very similar. You then stick a 4MW plus electric on the front until the wires run out and 2MW diesel comes on for the rest of the journey maybe leaving some coaches behind.

[broadgage]

I doubt that I would use the train if first class was abolished.

Reading passengers who dont approve of first class should use the local services that have no first class.

Some trains are very overcrowded in both first and standard, but in many cases standard seats are available, however the "Reading sheep" prefer to travell towards the London end of the train, and in many cases seats are available towards the country end.

What we really need are longer trains, not the costly, complicated, route restricted, IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.), but proper full length locomotive hauled trains, with diesel or electric locos being used as required.
As few as 6 full length loco hauled sets (plus a maintenance spare) would greatly improve matters and could be introduced  quickly.

Use of a 12 car loco hauled set on the busiest six  HST^▸ (High Speed Train) diagrams would very substantialy increase seating capacity.
The gain would not be restricted to the trips served by the locohauled sets, since 6 HSTs would be freed for use in place of the 6 most crowded DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) diagrams.
This in turn would free 6 or more DMUs, for lengthening the worst crowded DMU diagrams.

Therefore the relatively modest cost of obtaining 7 locohauled sets would benifit a large number of customers.
This will not require years of research and development, hauled coaches, diesel locos and electric locos are matures technologies, available from various supplies.

[JayMac]

Reading passengers who dont approve of first class should use the local services that have no first class.

I think you'll find that even the local services, operated using class 165/166, have a first class section. No leather seats, power points or at-seat service though.

[IndustryInsider]

Use of a 12 car loco hauled set on the busiest six  HST^▸ (High Speed Train) diagrams would very substantialy increase seating capacity.

And it would very substantially increase journey times. Lower top speed and poor acceleration. I remember the days when the Wessex Scot used to struggle out of Oxford with it's 11 or 12 coaches in the days when it used to split at Carstairs.

[jane s]

Personally I am in favour of reducing the number of first-class carriages/seats to the level where supply equals average demand for the route & time of day (meaning that in the very few cases where it is full, they will have to wait a few minutes for the next train - in which the carriage will be empty!)

On the turbos, I have noticed that some sets have first-class at both ends, and others at only one - why?

Also, on 6-car trains, this also means that they may, or may not, have first class at both ends AND in the middle - some of which are almost completely empty (until you get to Hayes/Southall where they fill up with standard-class passengers who couldn't care less if they are disturbing genuine first-class people who have paid for their tickets.)

Also there is no consistency whatsoever about the formation - in no circumstances should the first-class ever be at the end pointing away from London, because this is the end that is generally standing room only in Standard, causing the over-spill.

So - make sure there is only ever ONE first-class section in a 3-car unit, please!

As for the inter-city trains, I don't use them very often, but again there generally seem to be too many first-class carriages at the expense of standard.

[Mookiemoo]

Personally I am in favour of reducing the number of first-class carriages/seats to the level where supply equals average demand for the route & time of day (meaning that in the very few cases where it is full, they will have to wait a few minutes for the next train - in which the carriage will be empty!)

On the turbos, I have noticed that some sets have first-class at both ends, and others at only one - why?

Also, on 6-car trains, this also means that they may, or may not, have first class at both ends AND in the middle - some of which are almost completely empty (until you get to Hayes/Southall where they fill up with standard-class passengers who couldn't care less if they are disturbing genuine first-class people who have paid for their tickets.)

Also there is no consistency whatsoever about the formation - in no circumstances should the first-class ever be at the end pointing away from London, because this is the end that is generally standing room only in Standard, causing the over-spill.

So - make sure there is only ever ONE first-class section in a 3-car unit, please!

As for the inter-city trains, I don't use them very often, but again there generally seem to be too many first-class carriages at the expense of standard.

I'm not an expert but since they dont split HST^▸ (High Speed Train) sets during the day - its almost impossible I believe to fiddle with the first class carriages in that way

The difference is a 165/166 on the local services - please dont insist they are all 165 units for the love of all that is holy.

To be honest, unless a ticket examiner gets on a local service, you may as well say they are all standard class .....


Also - Why SHOULD first class have to wait for the next train so standard can get on the current one?  Kind of brings into question the idea of first class.

Of course the griping is usually from people who cant afford first class............... no surprise there then

[Andy]

Of course the griping is usually from people who cant afford first class............... no surprise there then

 

[broadgage]

Use of a 12 car loco hauled set on the busiest six  HST^▸ (High Speed Train) diagrams would very substantialy increase seating capacity.

And it would very substantially increase journey times. Lower top speed and poor acceleration. I remember the days when the Wessex Scot used to struggle out of Oxford with it's 11 or 12 coaches in the days when it used to split at Carstairs.

Would the performance be much reduced ? I was thinking of class 67s or something based on that design, top speed of 125.

[inspector_blakey]

Top speed isn't the issue, it's acceleration/deceleration that take up the time. An HST^▸ (High Speed Train) on one power car can still, I believe, make it up to 125 mph eventually but because it only has half the horsepower it would normally the acceleration is much reduced, and consequently journey time increased.

A 67 has 3200 hp, but an HST on both power cars has about 4500 hp under the bonnet (correct me if I'm wrong, somebody!). So if you put a 67 on a heavier load than an HST (12 vs 8 ) you're definitely going to slow things down considerably. Having the power concentrated in just one place also increases the risk of problems with traction/wheelslip. Indeed, HSTs themselves have problems with adhesion sometimes, take a look at this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3CJPgn7moo&feature=player_embedded

Differently formed HST sets to respond to first class demand during the day are a non-starter. Firstly, it's not a straightforward business to split and re-marshal an HST (take a look at all the air connections and electrical jumpers between the vehicles next time you see one). And, as we saw with 2+7 buffet-less sets travelling PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-PNZ, sooner or later something will go wrong with the service and you'll end up with set allocation completely screwed up!

[Btline]

They've ruined our education system by using this logic:- if you can't improve the worst, then destroy the best !!!!!!

Hear hear.

[devon_metro]

Must agree. Grammar schools ought to stay 

[Btline]

Lucky, they all went in Worcestershire in the 80s. Plenty cling on in Birmingham though, but they are HEAVILY subscribed to from most of the surrounding counties who lost out.

[paul7575]

Would the performance be much reduced ? I was thinking of class 67s or something based on that design, top speed of 125.

Wouldn't they be limited to 110 mph max anyway with ordinary Mk3 rolling stock?  Also, where are all these coaches going to come from? You want 84 (for 7 + 1 spare sets), and IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) from that competion commission report a while back, there is nothing like that number available. WSMR^▸ (Wrexham, Shropshire and Marylebone Railway) and GC^» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) before them were scraping the bottom of the barrel, I thought?

Paul

[IndustryInsider]

A class 67 + 12 carriages would not stand a chance of getting to 125mph. It would struggle to get to 110mph and that would be with very poor acceleration.