Bristol connections: Metro, Bus Rapid Transit, PTE, ITA and local councils - discussion

[whole diary]

[grahame]

only people specifically wanting Bath will go that way.

And Chippenham, which will in turn have it's numerous connections to Melksham. 

The running time from Bristol to Swindon will only be about 5 minutes different,  and I suspect many people will simply go "first available train".  If that was :00 and :30 via Bath and :20 and :50 via Parkway, then that makes for the majority via Parkway, and for a regular quarter hourly service from Swindon onwards.  Add in 2 trains an hour from South Wales, 1 an hour from Gloucester and 1 an hour from the Cotswold line from Didcot onwards, and you're forming a "2 trains every quarter hour" pattern. And if that's gaps of 5 and 10 minutes, you have 4 slots free for stuff joining at Reading .... bias needed on the extra trains that are diesels, esp older diesels.

[swrural]

only people specifically wanting Bath will go that way.

And Chippenham, which will in turn have it's numerous connections to Melksham. 

The running time from Bristol to Swindon will only be about 5 minutes different,  and I suspect many people will simply go "first available train".  If that was :00 and :30 via Bath and :20 and :50 via Parkway, then that makes for the majority via Parkway, and for a regular quarter hourly service from Swindon onwards.  Add in 2 trains an hour from South Wales, 1 an hour from Gloucester and 1 an hour from the Cotswold line from Didcot onwards, and you're forming a "2 trains every quarter hour" pattern. And if that's gaps of 5 and 10 minutes, you have 4 slots free for stuff joining at Reading .... bias needed on the extra trains that are diesels, esp older diesels.

The stuff (!) I assume means from Taunton and points west.  Yes that sounds a feasible pattern

I contend that, on its own, there are not pressing conflicts at SWJ for four trains per hour to cross the whole complex.  (I am referring, for those not over-familar with Bristol nomenclature, to the point east of TM^‡(resolve) where the line to Bath diverges from the line to South Wales).  However, the introduction of intensive local services after 4 tracking et al, will produce far more conflicting movements than at present.  Looking at Google Earth, the 4 tracking already extends to that junction, so these Londons via Bath from the old station have to cross the whole complex.  In the old days, the Severn Beach locals used to depart from the old station, as did the Bath locals via Mangotsfield, for the reason that they did not have to cross junctions (I always assumed).  The Mangotsfield line is one of those that is gone but would not have been 'gone' now.  It also achieved a flyover of the South Wales line at Lawrence Hill, so did not conflict whatsoever (also Cross Country trains would now fly under the Badminton line at Westerleigh so another avoided conflict, I imagine a multi level Parkway would now have been built at Westerleigh!!). 

There was a diagram somewhere of the envisaged pattern of local Bristol services.  Can a kind person point to it please?

[TonyK]

More news on Henbury in tonight's Evening Post

'Huge step forward' for rail links

AN MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) has hailed a "massive step forward" for Bristol's rail links after ministers agreed to consider long-awaited improvements.

The Department for Transport will carry out a feasibility study into the benefits and costs of having a full Henbury Loop line ^ part of an improved Bristol Metro local rail network ^ rather than the spur currently proposed. It could lead to the Henbury Loop being included in the new Great Western franchise, which is currently on hold.

Yesterday a cross-party group of Bristol MPs met rail minister Simon Burns to call for extra improvements to be included when the line is put out to tender following a delay caused by the collapse of the West Coast Mainline deal.

Speaking afterwards, Bristol North West MP Charlotte Leslie, who organised the meeting, said: "We managed to get a pledge from him that the department would look into the feasibility of the Henbury Loop.

"It is real progress, and far more than I thought would come out of the meeting. It is potential game-changer for the Bristol Metro.

"It's not a promise that it will happen, but it's a massive step forward from where we were before."

Charlotte Leslie seems very keen on rail improvements in the area. She has arranged several meeting of local MPs, and I think she was on board the specials down the Portbury line.

[swrural]

I understood that there is active consideration of wiring up Avonmouth to Birmingham so that might have a lot to do with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) making reasonable noises.  That and the fact that I read the same thing after every deputation from MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) to the Minister (see the Pewsey Vale lobby).

[TonyK]

The HLOS^▸ (High Level Output Specification) asks the rail industry to look at electrifying Derby -Birmingham - Bristol, and all major ports  after 2019. That is fairly active consideration, which may mean freight can be hauled to Scotland from Avonmouth by electric locos. The Deep Sea Container Port at Avonmouth could be up and running by then, which will greatly increase the amount of freight traffic coming out of Avonmouth via Hallen. Given there is a single track bit, it is difficult to see how a loop passenger service could be fitted in.

[anthony215]

The HLOS^▸ (High Level Output Specification) asks the rail industry to look at electrifying Derby -Birmingham - Bristol, and all major ports  after 2019. That is fairly active consideration, which may mean freight can be hauled to Scotland from Avonmouth by electric locos. The Deep Sea Container Port at Avonmouth could be up and running by then, which will greatly increase the amount of freight traffic coming out of Avonmouth via Hallen. Given there is a single track bit, it is difficult to see how a loop passenger service could be fitted in.

Any chance of more douyble tracks sections and passing loops installed?

[swrural]

The HLOS^▸ (High Level Output Specification) asks the rail industry to look at electrifying Derby -Birmingham - Bristol, and all major ports  after 2019. That is fairly active consideration, which may mean freight can be hauled to Scotland from Avonmouth by electric locos. The Deep Sea Container Port at Avonmouth could be up and running by then, which will greatly increase the amount of freight traffic coming out of Avonmouth via Hallen. Given there is a single track bit, it is difficult to see how a loop passenger service could be fitted in.

Any chance of more double tracks sections and passing loops installed?

It was doubled in 1918 (the lot) so I don't see the problems here.  Even the bridges over the two motorways (M5 and M49) are double.

[TonyK]

It was singled in 1966, to celebrate England winning the world cup. It was re-doubled in the late 1990s, IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly), at which time the second bridge over the M5 at Hallen was constructed. It is double for the entire length now. The big problem will be the DSCT. Interpretation of the figures on the website suggest anything up to 1600 containers per day up the hill towards Stoke Gifford. They won't be going quickly, so room for passenger services will be limited.

There is a signal just by passage road, with some new houses near by. I was told by one of the occupants that the nearest was built closer to the line than its planning permission allowed. They have goods trains sat at the signal for an hour or more at a time, which is why their house smells of diesel. That is going to need sorting out, as will capacity on the main line.

[JayMac]

From the Bristol Post:

New hope for Metro rail system for Bristol

HOPES that Bristol will have a fully functioning Metro rail system have taken a massive step forward.

Bristol North West Tory MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) Charlotte Leslie, who led a cross-party delegation of city and regional MPs to meet transport minister Simon Burns last week, has now been given official confirmation that the Government has been convinced that it needs to look at the case for the so-called Henbury Loop Line ^ a rail link from a reopened Henbury station to the Severn Beach line.

Under current plans presented by the West of England Partnership, there would only be a reopened 'spur' to Henbury station which would mean that passenger trains could only stop there and return the way they came.

It would also mean that anyone travelling by train from Shirehampton to Henbury would need to go all the way into Bristol and out via Filton to reach their destination.

Ms Leslie has argued forcefully that a spur instead of a loop would represent a significant disappointment and leave the city's Metro system as a "massive missed opportunity".

Ms Leslie said: "Plans for mass housing development risk unacceptable congestion on north Bristol's roads, unless a loop line is in place.

"The loop would also mean people in north Bristol would have easy access to workplaces in and around Avonmouth, which has recently been designated an enterprise area."

Now, however, the possibility of a loop has been given considerable weight by Mr Burns.

And Ms Leslie is looking forward to working together on the project with Mayor George Ferguson who spoke in favour many times during his election campaign.

Ms Leslie, right, said: "The plans for the Metro, as they stand, fall short of ideal. While they are a massive step forward, I believe that without the Henbury Loop, it will be the missed opportunity of a generation. In short, as the plans stand, the line would 'stop' at Henbury, not link up to the Severn Beach Line ... meaning passengers travelling from Redland or Clifton Down looking for a connection to Cribbs Causeway would have to go all the way into Bristol and out again via Filton. The ironic thing is that the track is there for freight now ^ we just need the green light for passenger services along with a reopened Henbury station."

In his letter to Ms Leslie, Mr Burns said: "I was very interested to learn about the Bristol Metro Phase 2 and to hear your view that it should include services on a full loop line through Henbury and Avonmouth rather than for trains to turn back at Henbury as currently envisaged in the work commissioned by the West of England Partnership. As a result of the case you put forward, I agree with you that this merits further investigation, given the future plans for housing and commercial development in the area. Department for Transport officials will be happy to work with the partnership on this task. I will confirm this to them, strongly suggesting that any work to assess the scheme should include looking at the feasibility of introducing services on the whole Henbury Loop."

Ms Leslie has now launched a petition and campaigns on websites Facebook and Twitter to ensure that as many voices are heard to bring pressure on the partnership.

This can be found at www.henburyloop.bristolpetitions.com. There is a Facebook page at www.facebook.com/henburyloop and Twitter users can follow Ms Leslie at @CLeslieMP then #henburyloop

She said: "This scheme is vital to the future of Bristol and I will be fighting until it happens. I hope the campaign for a Henbury Loop brings businesses, charities, and residents together to fight to get Bristol on track. And to get things done in Bristol, political parties need to stop bickering and pull in the same direction. I have already involved Mayor Ferguson in these initial discussions and I look forward to working with him further."

Earlier this year, Ms Leslie brought together the region's MPs who signed a joint submission to the Department for Transport to fight as one for the region's best transport interests.

I'm not usually one for petitions as I have doubts about their effectiveness, but I've signed this one as the reinstatement of Henbury Station will have direct benefits for me. I've also 'Liked' the Facebook page and retweeted.

[TonyK]

Why could they not put a fourth line to the east, between platform 1 and the footpath/cyclepath? I would have thought the space was there, even if it needed a lot of groundwork and would require a footbridge from platform 1 to the MOD exit.

Probably because it would need a lot of ground work, and a footbridge from Platform 1 to the MoD exit.

[swrural]

Well, it's all grist to the mill but I have to confess that I wondered about residents of Redland and Clifton wishing to flock to the ghastly Mall at Cribbs.  I would not wish to go there under any circumstances.  I went there once, dragged by my MIL, and it's just nasty.  I regard the place as a straightforward planning disaster , as well as the abandonment of the adjacent Filton airfield, which should be Bristol Airport.

Ah, now we are talking. If Ms Leslie had the vision that the line could serve such a facility she could be starting to think strategically.

The consequences of Bristol not absorbing the peripheral suburbs there have had profound negative consequences for the sub regional area.  It still could be (even as the airport bits and pieces are being sold on eBay) be taken hold of by the scruff of the neck by a well-informed government.

[TonyK]

Well, it's all grist to the mill but I have to confess that I wondered about residents of Redland and Clifton wishing to flock to the ghastly Mall at Cribbs.  I would not wish to go there under any circumstances.  I went there once, dragged by my MIL, and it's just nasty.  I regard the place as a straightforward planning disaster , as well as the abandonment of the adjacent Filton airfield, which should be Bristol Airport.

Ah, now we are talking. If Ms Leslie had the vision that the line could serve such a facility she could be starting to think strategically.

The consequences of Bristol not absorbing the peripheral suburbs there have had profound negative consequences for the sub regional area.  It still could be (even as the airport bits and pieces are being sold on eBay) be taken hold of by the scruff of the neck by a well-informed government.

Whoever thought we would ever miss the County of Avon?

[Tim]

Well, it's all grist to the mill but I have to confess that I wondered about residents of Redland and Clifton wishing to flock to the ghastly Mall at Cribbs.  I would not wish to go there under any circumstances.  I went there once, dragged by my MIL, and it's just nasty.  I regard the place as a straightforward planning disaster , as well as the abandonment of the adjacent Filton airfield, which should be Bristol Airport.

Ah, now we are talking. If Ms Leslie had the vision that the line could serve such a facility she could be starting to think strategically.

The consequences of Bristol not absorbing the peripheral suburbs there have had profound negative consequences for the sub regional area.  It still could be (even as the airport bits and pieces are being sold on eBay) be taken hold of by the scruff of the neck by a well-informed government.

agree completely about the railport.  Longer runway, less fog and better road and rail links.

I went to Cribbs Causeway once - never again.  If you look at maps before teh shopping centre was build, the area was called "catbrain".  I've never figured out why the shopping centre isn't "the Catbrain Mall"

[TonyK]

Catbrain Hill still exists. The name apparently refers to the consistency of the clay beneath it. Some cats may have been harmed in deciding on the name, but not by me.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Whoever thought we would ever miss the County of Avon?

We don't.  What we need is an integrated transport authority - and the County of Avon was never that.