Cross Country Destruction of service

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Someone posted on here that their Franchise says the "extra seats" have to be in place by Summer 2010, so nothing stopping them withdrawing the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) through the Winter and bringing them back for the Summer without breaking any agreements.

I would have hoped all sets would be running for Christmas/New Year period, but who knows.

Apart from that, you can't blame XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) for putting Voyagers on if demand is lower and it is more cost effective.  Once again business economics, whether you love or loath Voyagers.

The franchise terms as available from the Dft website state quite clearly that the capacity improvements are to be in place from 30 June 2009. I can find no mention of a variation in terms to allow Arriva Cross Country to withdraw 3xHST sets from the train fleet. However I am just a lay person and don't pretend to understand all the legalese in Franchise Documents. I'm sure AXC^» (Arriva Cross Country - about) are not deliberately breaking their franchise agreement as that could trigger a remedial notice. They may have requested a variation in terms from the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), although this seems unlikely as Andrew Adonis is on record as saying "we do not re-negotiate franchises".

[readytostart]

From what I've experienced first hand I'd say that the majority of the time the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s are hauling fresh air, with a lot more trough than peaks throughout the diagram.
They are more expensive to lease and to pay track access for than a Voyager and also more awkward to rescue in the event of a failure. They're less flexible with regard to stepping up as only NE/SW axis crews can work them and that they can't go South of Reading at present.
My understanding is that in the next few weeks the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) HSTs are going to be remarshalled to remove a coach.
Loathed as they are, the Voyagers are the core fleet and that's not going to change, the only development I see in the near future is a possible swap with East Coast of the HSTs for their 180s on lease.
Sorry to sound like the XC boy I am, and I do love HSTs, but if they're not making financial sense then really the company don't have a lot of options.

[Super Guard]

From what I've experienced first hand I'd say that the majority of the time the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s are hauling fresh air, with a lot more trough than peaks throughout the diagram.

The problem is there IMO^▸ (in my opinion).  They may be timed to fulfill requirements between Birmingham and Leeds, but there are then overcrowded voyagers in the South-West that are crying out for HST service.

[readytostart]

From what I've experienced first hand I'd say that the majority of the time the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s are hauling fresh air, with a lot more trough than peaks throughout the diagram.

The problem is there IMO^▸ (in my opinion).  They may be timed to fulfill requirements between Birmingham and Leeds, but there are then overcrowded voyagers in the South-West that are crying out for HST service.

True, but then the trains would be empty at the opposite end. Whilst there are obviously those who enjoy HST travel, a double-set Voyager is a lot more flexible if used correctly and joined or split in the right location to manage passenger flow.
Unfortunately when given the choice of a full Voyager that gets exceedingly busy for one hour out of it's nine or ten hour trip or a half empty HST that fills up for one hour then they're gonna go for the cheaper option out of the two.

[paul7575]

The franchise terms as available from the Dft website state quite clearly that the capacity improvements are to be in place from 30 June 2009.

I don't think is stated quite clearly at all really. The ITT^▸ (Invitation to Tender) (what they were originally asked to do) includes June 2010.

"The Bidder may provide the increase in capacity in steps, with the full requirement to be provided by June 2010 at the latest. An interim minimum increase in capacity must be provided from December 2008"

The franchise agreement, which is what they offered to do, and the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) agreed with, does then suggest 2009.

Either way, there is no way they'll have withdrawn HST^▸ (High Speed Train) diagrams without DfT's tacit approval.

Paul

[bemmy]

The problem is there IMO^▸ (in my opinion).  They may be timed to fulfill requirements between Birmingham and Leeds, but there are then overcrowded voyagers in the South-West that are crying out for HST^▸ (High Speed Train) service.

True, but then the trains would be empty at the opposite end. Whilst there are obviously those who enjoy HST travel, a double-set Voyager is a lot more flexible if used correctly and joined or split in the right location to manage passenger flow.
Unfortunately when given the choice of a full Voyager that gets exceedingly busy for one hour out of it's nine or ten hour trip or a half empty HST that fills up for one hour then they're gonna go for the cheaper option out of the two.

I haven't seen a double voyager for a few years, do you still get them? I've been on a fair few 4-car sets that had enough passengers for two....

[devon_metro]

Apart from that, you can't blame XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) for putting Voyagers on if demand is lower and it is more cost effective.  Once again business economics, whether you love or loath Voyagers.

Demand lower in Christmas? Is it really business economics?

If people have a bad travelling experience, they won't be back.

[thetrout]

IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) the 19:44 Bristol Temple Meads - Plymouth Service Splits at Bristol Temple Meads having come from Up North...! Not sure if someone can confirm that...?

[paul7575]

Double Voyagers make it to Bournemouth fairly regularly. Even more so at weekends at the moment, when they only run 2 hourly.

Getting back to the main point though, who's to say they haven't chosen this week to take the trains out for some sort of major maintenance. For all anyone knows they could be back in use next week...

Paul

[devon_metro]

IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) the 19:44 Bristol Temple Meads - Plymouth Service Splits at Bristol Temple Meads having come from Up North...! Not sure if someone can confirm that...?

Yes, front 4 continue to Plymouth, rear 4 go on the 2000 to Manchester

[The Tall Controller]

Last January I travelled on a double voyager up from Cornwall to Birmingham. Only the front half was in use from Penzance but the rest was brought into use at Plymouth and thank goodness it was because it was packed after Plymouth!

[Btline]

This is a stupid idea. Remember that the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) use was not just to provide 5 8 car trains, but to allow an additional 5 Voyagers to be made double. But only 4 HSTs ever ran at a time, XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) gave 5 Voyagers to VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) and now they are not running all the HSTs.

Whenever I've seen the HSTs, they've been very busy!

Appalling.

[caliwag]

Really the whole thing is down to very poor marketing. If you, as an operator, are lucky enough to have three daily 125 sets at your disposal on very long distance journeys, then sell it...use the buffet/hot food facility. We appear to assume that train travellers are comparing with buses (OK it is Arriva after all) but surely if you and family are planning the York to Exeter or Newcastle to Birmingham trip, the perceptance that there will be a cafe/bar/buffet/even restaurant facility on board on those "special" trains will win passengers.
OK that is not the concept as presently put forward (yep they are a bus company) but surely they are all missing a trick.
Advertising is all...can't you see it..."Visit your son/granma/sister/lover etc etc...sit back and relax with an at table hot snack blah blah"...how many hours?
Bunch of bl++dy useless, pair-it-to-the-bone amateurs

[paul7575]

This is a stupid idea. Remember that the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) use was not just to provide 5 8 car trains, but to allow an additional 5 Voyagers to be made double.

No it wasn't - becasue when the 5 HSTs were delivered 5 additonal 221s were released back from XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) to Virgin West Coast.

Paul

[Btline]

This is a stupid idea. Remember that the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) use was not just to provide 5 8 car trains, but to allow an additional 5 Voyagers to be made double.

No it wasn't - becasue when the 5 HSTs were delivered 5 additonal 221s were released back from XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) to Virgin West Coast.

Paul

Exactly, as I point out on my post!