Penalty fares go live in April 2010

[whole diary]

[super tm]

There must be a situation that can arise where a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) is issued, and then it is discovered later (back at the office maybe) that the culprit is a serial offender.

If he's paid up, is that it? Or do mobile RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) have the ability to check by phone? Can a PF be refunded and a summons issued anyway - maybe there's some appropriate small print on the notice?

Paul

As part of the id check they the RPI will be told of any previous Penalty Fares issued for the same person.  They can then decide whether is issue a penalty fare or take it further.

[TerminalJunkie]

There must be a situation that can arise where a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) is issued, and then it is discovered later (back at the office maybe) that the culprit is a serial offender.

If he's paid up, is that it?

Since a Penalty Fare is a fare, not a fine, you can't become an offender for receiving one, and you can't become a 'serial offender' it you are issued more than one...

Can a PF be refunded and a summons issued anyway - maybe there's some appropriate small print on the notice?

...and it would be a little unreasonable to be prosecuted for repeatedly paying your fare!

[paul7575]

There must be a situation that can arise where a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) is issued, and then it is discovered later (back at the office maybe) that the culprit is a serial offender.

If he's paid up, is that it?

Since a Penalty Fare is a fare, not a fine, you can't become an offender for receiving one, and you can't become a 'serial offender' it you are issued more than one...

Whatever, if they don't keep records I'd be amazed.  Even if offender was the wrong word, I'd be surprised if they don't have lists of PFs issued on their PDAs...

Paul

[chrisoates]

Had another day out in Devon - the boat trip around Dawlish bay is very good !

Got on the School run from Dawlish to Paignton - the girl who rudely pushed in front of the queue said she had no ticket, didn't care and was rather preoccupied texting some hot boy further up the train.
RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) found her and the result was just as you'd expect - nearly in tears - no I don't know my Mother's phone number - they had to let her go as she 'had' to get off at Teignmouth and by now an unrelated adult had started on the RPI.

Much better result at Newton Abbot - much shouting of 'no ticket means a penalty fare' saw a rather large amount of schoolies  huffing,puffing & swearing their way back over the bridge to find another way home.

[JayMac]

....no I don't know my Mother's phone number....

Yeah right! Bet Mum's number was in her mobile. How else does she call her taxi service which must pick her up at the drop of a hat day or night?

Shame RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s can't look at the little darlings' mobile phonebooks. Bit of BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) backup needed on this service methinks.

[Brucey]

Shame RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s can't look at the little darlings' mobile phonebooks. Bit of BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) backup needed on this service methinks.

Unfortunately police don't have this power either.  However a request from a police officer is probably more likely to generate the best response (i.e. handing over of the parent's phone number).

[vacman]

Every time someone is issued a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) it is kept on record, on your third PF in 12 months you wont be issued a PF but reported for prosecution, if you are liable to a PF you HAVE committed an offence by joining a train without a ticket where it is possible to buy your ticket before travelling (Byelaw 18(1)) and you can be reported for this on the first occasion, an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) or infact a guard/ATE etc does not have to accept a fare in these circumstances and can report for the byelaw offence, and its pretty easy as no intent has to be proven as it is a "strict liability" offence!

[Chris from Nailsea]

Shame RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s can't look at the little darlings' mobile phonebooks. Bit of BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) backup needed on this service methinks.

Unfortunately police don't have this power either.  However a request from a police officer is probably more likely to generate the best response (i.e. handing over of the parent's phone number).

Hmm. The occasional presence of a BTP officer on board a train does indeed work wonders: see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6784.msg67801#msg67801

C. 

[Brucey]

I witnessed a RPO on a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) service for the very first time yesterday on 1F11 (Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour) between Bath and Westbury where there are never normally any ticket checks on this service.

After leaving Bath Spa, the guard (quite a jolly chap) announced his usual bits and pieces, then followed this by "Please have all tickets ready as there are revenue protection officers on this service.  Passengers without tickets may be subject to a penalty fare of at least ^20."

The RPO came through (wearing the distinct grey jacket instead of the blue one) with an Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) machine and a pad of something (presumably penalty fares).  He Zifa-ed my ticket as 2X56 - not sure if this is something special or whether he hadn't changed the stamp.  He had a very good inspection of my railcard but didn't want to see my reservation coupon for the advance ticket.

The main point of my post was about the type of people who were issued with penalty fares.  There were two ladies who were middle aged, looked very trusting and honest, not your typical fare evaders.  "Two returns from BoA^» (Bradford-on-Avon - next trains) to Trowbridge please".  "That will be ^40" was the RPO's simple response.  The look on their faces was priceless when they were told the ticket office was open so they should've bought a ticket before boarding.  It seemed so much like a role reversal: all the young people had tickets, yet there were more "honest looking" people further down the carriage who also received penalty fares.

[inspector_blakey]

And here's what I find slightly depressing...

Were those middle-aged ladies to write to the Daily Mail or their local rag, no doubt there would be a headline about the outright injustice of two honest, pillar-of-the-community WI members being "fined" by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) when they had every intention of paying their fare, honestly they did, it's just very confusing this "buying a ticket" malarkey and there was someone in front of them at the booking office and you really can't expect them to wait or use a machine can you, not at their age?

And yet, were it to be someone younger, ideally wearing a hoodie, I don't see any of the mee-ja picking up on the story since no doubt to them it would be a case of "hoodie scum get their comeuppance".

Discuss. 

PS 2X56 probably just a remnant of whatever it was last time he remembered to set it! In my limited experience of Thames Valley RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) they don't bother to set it to anything other than 0X00 or 0X01.

[vacman]

The RP team has been somewhat increased lately from what I can gather, so expect to see a lot more of it!

[Timmer]

The RP team has been somewhat increased lately from what I can gather, so expect to see a lot more of it!

good.

[thetrout]

Whilst I am in full support in Revenue Collection - Infact I pointed out to a Guard this evening, a faredodger who judging by their belongings, clearly had enough time to stock up on cigs and booze. But not enough time to buy a ticket, and then proceeded to completely ignore an "All Tickets" request. The matter was promptly dealt with and they were not happy in coughing up their fare, but did so eventually.

Anyway I'm really sorry if i'm going to open a tin of worms here. But does there become a point in where FGW^▸ (First Great Western) employ say 10 RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s on a ^20,000 salary for example, that then actually costs more than the lost revenue in the first place?! I'm possibly not aware of how much faredodging goes on across the network and I know I will be shot for this suggestion. But it is merely a simple question

[inspector_blakey]

Whilst I am in full support in Revenue Collection - Infact I pointed out to a Guard this evening, a faredodger who judging by their belongings, clearly had enough time to stock up on cigs and booze. But not enough time to buy a ticket, and then proceeded to completely ignore an "All Tickets" request. The matter was promptly dealt with and they were not happy in coughing up their fare, but did so eventually.

Anyway I'm really sorry if i'm going to open a tin of worms here. But does there become a point in where FGW^▸ (First Great Western) employ say 10 RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s on a ^20,000 salary for example, that then actually costs more than the lost revenue in the first place?! I'm possibly not aware of how much faredodging goes on across the network and I know I will be shot for this suggestion. But it is merely a simple question

On an incredibly simplistic level...assuming a salary of GBP20,000, then that means an RPI needs to raise 1,000 "base line" penalty fares at GBP 20 in a year to pay for themselves. Assume roughly 200 working days a year and that's 5 per shift. No idea how many an RPI would generally issue but that sounds like a reasonable number to me. Plus they are a more general deterrent to ticketless travel, since the threat of them may well make people buy tickets rather than "risk it".

Then of course there's the issue that in addition to the penalty fare, the RPI may also charge the full standard fare to the passenger's destination if they wish to remain on the same train. And that some penalty fares may be considerably more than GBP20.00, since the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) amount is either that or twice the single fare to the next station, whichever is the greater.

Bottom line is that I'm fairly sure the accountants at FGW towers are savvy enough to ensure that these staff are going to pay for themselves!

[Super Guard]

On an incredibly simplistic level...assuming a salary of GBP20,000, then that means an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) needs to raise 1,000 "base line" penalty fares at GBP 20 in a year to pay for themselves. Assume roughly 200 working days a year and that's 5 per shift.

RPI's are certainly paid more than ^20k basic and then there is the commission per ticket too, but assuming that was their salary, 1,000 x ^20 fares would not pay for the RPI, as surely FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would not get the ^20,000 to pay the RPI in this case as such a high % per ticket goes to the Government, and then that is assuming that 'ORCATS^▸ (Operational Research Computerised Allocation of Tickets to Services)' don't hand some more of the ticket revenue to other TOCS as appropriate.