Is it True?

[whole diary]

[eightf48544]

Just done Taplow SOT (See Pendo versus Vomiter in the Lighter Side).

Had seat reserved 17:11 ex SOT but got back earlier than expected.

So as NRES^▸ (National Rail Enquiry Service) had given me the 14:11 as a possible return train for the same price Off Peak Return.

On enquiring at SOT booking office was informed that not only could I indeed travel on the 14:11 that as I had purchased my ticket with a Senior Railcard i could in fact travel on on any Virgin train at anytime to and from London with an Off Peak Ticket.


So caught 13:50 ex SOT no problem train manager punched ticket and said don't foget to keep it for the underground which I thought was very good, not knowing that I travelled daily on the H&C for nearly 40 years i still have my first  LT photo ID card.

Is this correct? If so it seems a very worthwhile concession and should be more widely publised.

If so it seems in great contrast to Johoare's post re off peak times on MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about) FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect).

[Ollie]

It's true, taken from The Manual:

"Off-Peak ticket types codes SVS and SVR purchased with a 16-25 or Young Persons Railcard are valid on any Virgin Train, where the route is not Virgin Trains Only and Virgin Trains price the flow, without time restriction."
"Off-Peak ticket types codes SVS and SVR purchased with a Disabled Persons Railcard are valid on any Virgin Train, where the route is not Virgin Trains Only and Virgin Trains price the flow, without time restriction."
"Off-Peak ticket types codes SVS and SVR purchased with a Senior Railcard are valid on any Virgin Train, where the route is not Virgin Train Only and Virgin Trains price the flow, without time restriction."
"Off-Peak ticket types codes SVS and SVR purchased with a Family & Friends Railcard are valid on any Virgin Train, where the route is not Virgin Trains Only and Virgin Trains price the flow, without time restriction."

[Tim]

Thats a great consession but it does illustrate what a complicated mess fares are.  How is a member of the public supoosed to know who prices the flow?  Presumable a member of staff whould have to look this up for many flows.

[Brucey]

Thats a great consession but it does illustrate what a complicated mess fares are.  How is a member of the public supoosed to know who prices the flow?  Presumable a member of staff whould have to look this up for many flows.

I agree - the fares system is far too complicated.  I've never seen this publicised to customers (maybe it is somewhere, but I've never found it?)  Only came across this by chance in the National Fares Manual a few months ago.

[inspector_blakey]

It also used to be the case on Virgin XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)), but was scrapped within seconds of the franchise transferring to Arriva.

[brompton rail]

It has been the case for some years now.

It was even more useful when Virgin ran XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) as it covered fares to and via Birmingham. However Arriva did not retain the concession when they took over. Apologies to Inspector Blakey - wrote this while your post came through.

Just to further illustrate how strange the fare system is I give the following example (there are many more too).
If I want to travel Doncaster to Bristol TM^‡(resolve) the fare is ^98.35 (R/C) or ^149 (no R/C) before 09.30 on Anytime ticket (no time restrictions) OR ^50:25 (R/C) or ^76:10 (no R/C) for an Off Peak Return (after 09.30).
However were I to go to Cardiff instead the fare is ^55.60 (R/C) or ^84.20 (no R/C) for an Off Peak Return but with no time restrictions. As well as being valid  to travel via Bristol Parkway the Cardiff ticket is also valid via Temple Meads.
Not sure if the gate at Temple Meads would snatch the Off Peak Ticket as it is not valid for Break of Journey (outward) but presumably is valid for terminating short of destination. I haven't checked the Fare Manual to see who fixes the DON to Cardiff fare.

[Brucey]

Just to further illustrate how strange the fare system is I give the following example (there are many more too).
If I want to travel Doncaster to Bristol TM^‡(resolve) the fare is ^98.35 (R/C) or ^149 (no R/C) before 09.30 on Anytime ticket (no time restrictions) OR ^50:25 (R/C) or ^76:10 (no R/C) for an Off Peak Return (after 09.30).
However were I to go to Cardiff instead the fare is ^55.60 (R/C) or ^84.20 (no R/C) for an Off Peak Return but with no time restrictions. As well as being valid  to travel via Bristol Parkway the Cardiff ticket is also valid via Temple Meads.
Not sure if the gate at Temple Meads would snatch the Off Peak Ticket as it is not valid for Break of Journey (outward) but presumably is valid for terminating short of destination. I haven't checked the Fare Manual to see who fixes the DON to Cardiff fare.

The time restriction on the CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) ticket is actually not before 05:00 (not the sort of hour when most people would travel!).

There is another one like this that I picked up on a little while ago.

London Terminals - Holyhead is between ^76.80 to ^254.00 return (cheapest Super Saver, dearest Anytime).

I then spotted that a through ticket from London Terminals to Dublin City, routed "+HLYHD STENA CIV^▸ (International Convention for the transportation of Passengers)" costs just ^63.00.  As far as I'm aware, there are no time restrictions provided you've booked a ferry.  The NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) also says "Break of journey on rail leg only", which makes me think you could then break at Holyhead and not use the ferry part of the ticket.

A similar problem exists for London Terminals - Stranraer, with tickets to Belfast NI being cheaper.

[Mookiemoo]

Just to further illustrate how strange the fare system is I give the following example (there are many more too).
If I want to travel Doncaster to Bristol TM^‡(resolve) the fare is ^98.35 (R/C) or ^149 (no R/C) before 09.30 on Anytime ticket (no time restrictions) OR ^50:25 (R/C) or ^76:10 (no R/C) for an Off Peak Return (after 09.30).
However were I to go to Cardiff instead the fare is ^55.60 (R/C) or ^84.20 (no R/C) for an Off Peak Return but with no time restrictions. As well as being valid  to travel via Bristol Parkway the Cardiff ticket is also valid via Temple Meads.
Not sure if the gate at Temple Meads would snatch the Off Peak Ticket as it is not valid for Break of Journey (outward) but presumably is valid for terminating short of destination. I haven't checked the Fare Manual to see who fixes the DON to Cardiff fare.

The time restriction on the CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) ticket is actually not before 05:00 (not the sort of hour when most people would travel!).

There is another one like this that I picked up on a little while ago.

London Terminals - Holyhead is between ^76.80 to ^254.00 return (cheapest Super Saver, dearest Anytime).

I then spotted that a through ticket from London Terminals to Dublin City, routed "+HLYHD STENA CIV^▸ (International Convention for the transportation of Passengers)" costs just ^63.00.  As far as I'm aware, there are no time restrictions provided you've booked a ferry.  The NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) also says "Break of journey on rail leg only", which makes me think you could then break at Holyhead and not use the ferry part of the ticket.

A similar problem exists for London Terminals - Stranraer, with tickets to Belfast NI being cheaper.

But even if you could not legally break at holly head - are there going to be stazi frog marching you onto a ferry!

[inspector_blakey]

No. Worst case scenario is if there was some kind of barrier check - there's none to my knowledge at Holyhead, but haven't been there for years and a TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) can always put in temporary staffed barriers at a station if the mood takes it. In that case you'd be charged the correct fare for the journey, although I don't know whether this would be an excess on top of what you had already paid or a requirement to stump up for the entire new ticket.

[JayMac]

How's that work then? Unless you stupidly declare you are using the cheaper Dublin ticket to end your journey at Holyhead.

A temporary barrier would have to be on railway property AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know).

To an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)), the ticket is valid so they let you through. So what if he/she then spots you walking out of the ferry terminal and off to see the delights of Holyhead town? Do they follow you and attempt to stop you? The rail portion of an ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock)/ECR is valid on any train, so potentially you could turn up, say, 6 hours before your ferry departure. It would have to be a pretty zealous RPI who keeps tabs on you all that time. Not to say rather sinister!

Even if the RPI did follow you off of railway property (which may, for historical reasons, include the ferry terminal) I'm fairly certain that the requirement to give your name and address to a railway officer upon request cannot be legally enforced outside of railway assets. The RPI would, therefore, need to call out the local Heddlu Trafnidiaeth Prydeinig or Heddlu Gogledd Cymru.... not something I see an RPI doing, when in essence the passenger has a valid ticket, but just isn't using it's full validity.

Whilst this theoretical incident may seem to be fare evasion, I see it more as fare avoidance. Bit like tax. If the system isn't robust enough and contains loopholes then exploiting them is perfectly justifiable.

[inspector_blakey]

Like I said in the post, that's a worst case scenario that could theoretically happen but is extremely unlikely. The point is, in response to FallenAngel's post, is that you're certainly not going to be frogmarched onto a ferry.

Extending the argument slightly, it is an entirely legitimate request to be allowed through the barriers at any station where you change trains even if your ticket does not allow "break of journey", since the journey is not broken unless you physically leave railway premises, i.e. step outside the station door, not just through the ticket barriers. This is particularly true at stations such as Reading, where many of the station facilities are outside the barriers. Any member of staff who refuses you permission to pass through the gateline to access station facilities is in the wrong.

[JayMac]

And, equally, any member of staff who stops you once you've walked through the main entrance would potentially be acting beyond their power.

Although quite where railway assets (the term used in the byelaws) end and the real world begins is difficult to know.

Temple Meads? Bottom of the approach road?

Reading? Beyond the low wall, where I often sit for a (non BOJ) smoke, so I must ensure I don't hang my legs on the road side and touch the ground beyond! I bet the Three Guineas' landlord is Network Rail so a pint in there is OK?

 

[eightf48544]

I've gone through the barriers at Reading when changing  in theory breaking my journey mainly because I catch the train before I need to from Taplow just to have time for a leisurely pint in the Three Guineas.

i've flashed a ticket at the manned gate and just been let through, I'm not sure the "gate operator" would have had time to fully read the ticket to see if it was valid.

[Brucey]

No. Worst case scenario is if there was some kind of barrier check - there's none to my knowledge at Holyhead, but haven't been there for years and a TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) can always put in temporary staffed barriers at a station if the mood takes it. In that case you'd be charged the correct fare for the journey, although I don't know whether this would be an excess on top of what you had already paid or a requirement to stump up for the entire new ticket.

Surely if you end your journey under section 16 of the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) (You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket.) then they wouldn't be able to charge you an excess or require you to buy a new ticket?

I think I've found the reason for the pricing discrepancy.  London to Dublin is priced by Arriva Trains Wales whereas London to Holyhead is priced by Virgin Trains.  Our good old complicated fares system!

[Worcester_Passenger]

The Irish prices are set by a partnership of rail and ferry operators trading as 'SailRail' - see http://www.sailrail.co.uk/index.php. The rail operators include Arriva Trains Wales, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (for Fishguard) and Scotrail, but not Virgin. But that doesn't stop a rail+ferry ticket being valid on their train. Partnership includes Irish Rail on the 'other' side.

The logic about the cheapness of the fares is that the ferries have lost so much of the traffic to the low-cost airlines that this is the only way in which they can keep any pass'rs. Well, short of investing in Icelandic volcanoes.

The fares can take you beyond Dublin (or wherever) - they're any station in Great Britain to any station in Ireland.

Similar arrangements apply on Harwich - Hook ferries. Through fares from any station in NX East Anglia to any station in Netherlands.

I can recommend Harwich - Hook. Nice big ferries. Walk straight on from train (can't do that at Holyhead - they have a very very elderly bus to take you down to the ferry ramp). Civilised overnight crossing (at Holyhead the overnight ferry turns round at 02:00). On the Irish Sea I prefer the more expensive overnight crossing with Norfolk Line from Dublin to Liverpool (Birkenhead actually). Though you can't walk on - they have to drive you on in a minibus!