SWT: Barrier Policy - or not !!

[whole diary]

[vacman]

AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) even if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) made Bath Spa a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) station, it still wouldn't be for SWT^▸ (South West Trains), unless they also went to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) with a proposal to extend their area to include the route, and perhaps those odd FGW stations like Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge where only SWT call. 
Paul
[/quote]According to the SWT PF leaflet PF's apply on SWT between Bistol and Westbury then again from Southampton, also from Salisbury, there are quite a few joint PF schemes, Reading to Guildford is one, Exeter Central and St Davids.

[paul7575]

AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) even if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) made Bath Spa a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) station, it still wouldn't be for SWT^▸ (South West Trains), unless they also went to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) with a proposal to extend their area to include the route, and perhaps those odd FGW stations like Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge where only SWT call. 
Paul

According to the SWT PF leaflet PF's apply on SWT between Bistol and Westbury then again from Southampton, also from Salisbury, there are quite a few joint PF schemes, Reading to Guildford is one, Exeter Central and St Davids.

Then they are ahead of me, I hadn't seen the latest leaflet - I guess they have tacked onto FGW's scheme already - but I still think they can't do it off their own bat, they'd still have to get DfT approval, which admittedly wouldn't be too difficult as FGW should have already done the signs etc...

Paul

[vacman]

AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) even if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) made Bath Spa a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) station, it still wouldn't be for SWT^▸ (South West Trains), unless they also went to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) with a proposal to extend their area to include the route, and perhaps those odd FGW stations like Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge where only SWT call. 
Paul

According to the SWT PF leaflet PF's apply on SWT between Bistol and Westbury then again from Southampton, also from Salisbury, there are quite a few joint PF schemes, Reading to Guildford is one, Exeter Central and St Davids.

Then they are ahead of me, I hadn't seen the latest leaflet - I guess they have tacked onto FGW's scheme already - but I still think they can't do it off their own bat, they'd still have to get DfT approval, which admittedly wouldn't be too difficult as FGW should have already done the signs etc...

Paul

I Expect they have got DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) approval, PF's have been in place on that route with SWT since april last year.

[moonrakerz]

UPDATE

I have now had two letters from SWT^▸ (South West Trains) so far, both saying that it was a "commercial decision" to limit platform access to rail ticket holders.  My main point, clearly asked in both my letters, asking exactly what the "compulsory ticket area" at Salisbury station actually is, has been totally ignored. Letter No 3 is in "Word" awaiting completion.

The second letter from SWT does include this statement:  "Penalty Fares apply to journeys from Salisbury station when travelling with SWT and FGW^▸ (First Great Western)".

I would appreciate any comments from Forum members on what this statement means. As far as I am aware Penalty Fares to do not apply from Warminster to Salisbury (as an example) - is it possible for Penalty Fares to apply from Salisbury to Warminster ?? Is it possible for PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) to apply to one train but not another serving the same route
Is anyone aware of a web page which clearly shows which routes/areas are covered by Penalty Fares schemes ?

Just to finish:
Letter No 1 says: "Our staff are under instruction to ............... behave........... with very little discretion"
Letter No 2 says: "Our staff will show discretion when dealing with disabled or elderly customers"

Surely, to be a "customer" of SWT you must be in possession of a ticket, so why does discretion need to be shown then?
Perhaps only elderly and disabled people are the only ones expected to want to go onto the platform to assist much younger and fully fit persons with their luggage !

[vacman]

Penalty fares DO NOT APPLY to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services from Salisbury!

[thetrout]

This sort of reminds me of a journey I made a couple of weeks back... Boarded a service from Frome > Bristol Temple Meads and the ticket office was closed, the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) there came cropper to vandals over a year ago and was never returned...! I made my presence known to the guard on board who couldn't sell me a ticket because his avantix was broken...

Arrived at BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) and asked to buy ticket at the barriers and an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) didn't take too kindly to this and said I was liable to penalty fare... Unfortunately for me I was in a hurry so I was the first at the gate wanting to leave, so I explained that the guard had a broken avantix, there was no TVM/ticket office open, nor was Frome even in the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) network! He didn't appear to want to believe me until several other passengers appeared from the same service at the gate saying pretty much the exact same thing! He then accused me of being cheeky by asking for a railcard discount, then I showed him my Disabled Railcard and he looked slightly ashamed of himself and issued me the ticket I wanted

Now I have another question regarding penalty fares.

I went to the cash point the other evening and withdrew some money, the poxy thing gave me ^20 note. Now I went to the ticket machine at Westbury to travel to Bradford-on-Avon and tried to pay with a ^20 note at the TVM... TVM kept rejecting the ^20 note, so I went to the next one, then I remembered they don't take ^20 for that low a fare! Annoyed at this I went and waited for my train to B-o-A. I made my presence known to the guard on the platform and said I had the funds to travel but the TVM rejected my ^20 note. He was a helpful chap and told me to jump on and he'd sort me out. Which he did, I then remembered I could have paid with my Business Credit Card which I did offer to the guard if he was short of change but he said it was fine

So question 1:

Can you be PF'd if you have the funds to travel but you have too great a sum of money and the TVM says no.

question 2:

If you have a manky tenner with you as an example, and the TVM won't accept it when you attempt to buy ticket, can you be PF'd for not having a ticket if you travel?!

Assume for both questions you board in the evening and the ticket office is closed! If the ticket office was open and either of these questions applied then I would always go to the ticket office to buy ticket

[John R]

The answer to both of those questions has to be "no", as you were not able to buy a ticket at the machine. However, whether you would be believed is another matter, as your story illustrates.

If however, your cash was refused but you then made it known to the official that you had a credit card then that is different. Though it's an interesting point if the only credit card you had was a business credit card and you were not travelling on business. Theoretically you have the means to pay, but you're not authorised to use it, so you should be alright (though not if you've offered to pay on board with it.)

[Tim]

Why not just have penalty fares everywhere in order to end the confusion of whether a particular train is covered or not?

[moonrakerz]

So question 1:

Can you be PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'d if you have the funds to travel but you have too great a sum of money and the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) says no.

question 2:

If you have a manky tenner with you as an example, and the TVM won't accept it when you attempt to buy ticket, can you be PF'd for not having a ticket if you travel?!

Assume for both questions you board in the evening and the ticket office is closed! If the ticket office was open and either of these questions applied then I would always go to the ticket office to buy ticket

DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) says:

"Using discretion. Authorised collectors must be given the discretion not to charge a penalty fare in a particular instance, even where the passenger is liable to pay a penalty fare under the Penalty Fares Rules. Operators must think carefully about the guidelines they give to authorised collectors about how they should use this discretion. We expect authorised collectors to use discretion towards:

passengers who are travelling from stations where the only ticket facilities available are ticket machines or a 'permit to travel' machine, and who have enough money (or a credit or debit card) to buy a ticket but not in the form needed to use the ticket or 'permit to travel' machine;

passengers who are travelling from stations where the only ticket facilities available are ticket machines and who claim that the machines were accepting coins only, or the exact fare only, and the passenger did not have the necessary coins (unless the authorised collector can confirm that the machines were in fact working normally);"

[moonrakerz]

UPDATE:
I have just had my 3rd reply from SWT^▸ (South West Trains) - as obtuse as the previous two !

According to SWT,  FGW^▸ (First Great Western) does have a Penalty Fares system in operation from Salisbury. They quote the nationalrail site, which does indeed say this - but this is the site that says Warminster has a Lost Property Office open until 10 o'clock seven days a week !
(During my last visit I did a little "snooping" - the Penalty Fares area at Salisbury does NOT comply with the rules of the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) at all - only two notices on the whole station, both of which are in positions where they are highly likely NOT to be seen by most people)

I don't really know if this person is being deliberately obstructive or what, in his replies .........

He says "We would allow access if there is a good reason...... I have given the example of elderly or disabled......... this is related to the customer travelling......not the person meeting the customer" !!!!!!   
I had already pointed out that, in this case, the person would HAVE a ticket anyway .........

Choice now:-
Boss man of SWT
MP^▸ (Member of Parliament)
DfT
Passenger Focus
Salisbury Journal
.................or all of them !

[Chris from Nailsea]

Hmm ...

I rather think Passenger Focus are much the same as the Department for Transport, as the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) are their paymasters - but, Yes! Please do write to all of them, and let us know the results!

C. 

[Chris2]

It might be worth writing to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) about the penalty fare's area at Salisbury, and get there penalty fare status in writing.

[moonrakerz]

It might be worth writing to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) about the penalty fare's area at Salisbury, and get there penalty fare status in writing.

I beat you to it 

[Nemesis]

I overheard an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) telling a guard that on non PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) sections, it is perfectly in order for on train ticket sellers to charge passengers the full single or full return fares and not to apply any form of discount...If they have boarded a train without purchasing a ticket when they have had the opportunity to do so. 

Obviously, some discretion is required in such cases, but apparently, those passengers who board a train without tickets, in the hope of eluding staff, but who will pay if challenged; are considered a major pain in the posterior.  The Falmouth branch is notorious for this practice, with many chancers from further afield proffering credit cards and the claim that they boarded at Truro.

[moonrakerz]

I was at Bath Spa on Monday morning, waiting for son to arrive from Chippenham. I won't go into the total lack of info regarding the signalling problems ..............!!

Whilst I was waiting for about 45 mins, from about 0930 to 1015, I had a little prowl round. Bath is a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) station, according to FGW^▸ (First Great Western): there is ONE PF notice on the whole station; in the subway, where it may or may not be noticed by passengers heading for the Bristol bound platform.
The gates were locked open, initially there were two staff in attendance - totally ignoring the people going in and out, but they obviously got bored and soon vanished. My son informs me that the barriers were still open when I dropped him off at Bath at about 1330.

Another TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) that seems to totally ignore the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) rules on this !

The question has to be asked - are they really serious about fare dodgers ? they seem to be doing all they can to encourage it !