shocking lack of customer service- still in shock!

[whole diary]

[Super Guard]

As I said previous, I am not endorsing hiding away at all, and the Guard should be visible, however I was specifically referring to the comments that no revenue duties on late night trains equates to a lazy Guard, which isn't the case.

[inspector_blakey]

I think you're absolutely right about striking a balance in these sorts of situations. I've often used the 2144ish service from BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) back to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) on a Saturday evening, which I think is an up Penzance working and always seems to have a large contingent of passengers on board who've had a little too much liquid fun. Some guards just hide, some maintain a very visible presence in the train but aren't too worried about tickets, but a few do revenue as well. Once the guard was working together with a revenue protection manager and between the two of them they did a very good job.

On another occasion however a guard was checking tickets with what struck me (and I was sober) as a very officious and confrontational manner to him, apparently starting out from the viewpoint that all of us on board were fare-evading. I don't know what happened further up the train, but subsequently he announced, sounding rather flustered, that when we arrived at Swindon he would keep the doors locked until the police arrived to apprehend someone in the train causing a disturbance.

And there we sat for 20 minutes with the doors locked until a plod of some description (whether county constabulary or BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) I know not) arrived, did nothing and told the guard to settle down. So what did checking tickets in this case achieve other than a whole load of avoidable aggravation, several delay minutes and a mass of missed connections and given the time of night possibly expense organizing taxis further down the route?

As an aside, I wondered at the time, and still do, whether the guard acted correctly by keeping us locked inside the train in the way he did. I can't believe that this is in any kind of training manual or an official company procedure. Presumably it couldn't be construed as false imprisonment since there is an emergency release that passengers could activate, but we were all effectively held captive for that length of time. In fact, I'm a little surprised none of the drunks used the emergency release, which no doubt would have resulted in that train being taken out of service and cancelled from there onwards...

Any thoughts from staff on that little debacle, especially the issue of the doors being kept locked at Swindon? After all, we were sitting in a station, and there was absolutely no legitimate operational or safety reason why we were kept locked in and not allowed off... I doubt very much that any of us using the emergency door release to make connections or leave the station would have been looked on very favourably.

[grahame]

On another occasion however a guard was checking tickets with what struck me (and I was sober) as a very officious and confrontational manner to him, apparently starting out from the viewpoint that all of us on board were fare-evading....

I've seen in quoted (on this forum) before that "over 90% of people travelling ... may not have the [right tickets] ..." in relation to a late night train, and that was by a member of staff.   But painting a broader picture, that poster also assured us on the forum that it's against the rules to join a train without a ticket unless there's a nonworking ticket machine at the joining point, and it's unstaffed.

It worried me that there was such a presumption that most people were setting out to defraud, and that (according to the rules as described) it wasn't actually possible to legally join a train at places like Avoncliff and Melksham without having taken steps (such as a prior trip to Chippenham or Bradford-on-Avon) to get a ticket.  And it worried me all the more when the response to a request for clarification / evidence was part of a series of event which lead to the particular posting deleting almost everything he had written here rather than providing supporting information and references for the situation and rules quoted.  To this day (and knowing that the individual concerned is some days on our line), I always approach the conductor before I board at a station where there's no way to buy a ticket and ask if he'll sell me one on the train.

One of the great things about a deterrent / security system can be its apparent randomness in checking - but I have an uneasy feeling that current randomness and attitude too is more down to the staff member(s) concerned rather than some overall planning, and that then provides for worrying situations of the "but your colleague yesterday was happy to ..." which reflects badly on everyone concerned.  Personally, I feel that there should always be an assumption from staff that they are interacting with customers - people who have paid (or who are going to pay at the first opportunity) for the service they are receiving, and the opposite attitude of a very few does harm quite out of proportion to their numbers.

Any thoughts from staff on that little debacle, especially the issue of the doors being kept locked at Swindon? After all, we were sitting in a station, and there was absolutely no legitimate operational or safety reason why we were kept locked in and not allowed off... I doubt very much that any of us using the emergency door release to make connections or leave the station would have been looked on very favourably.

Requoting that ... I would love to hear too ...

[Super Guard]

This is my opinion, and not necessarily that of FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/FirstGroup/DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) etc etc 

We don't know what the "incident" was at Swindon requiring the Police (ticketing/assault etc).  Clearly the fact the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) told the Guard to take a chill pill meant it probably wasn't anything major.  In the same situation, you really do have to ask the question "is it worth it?"  A train is now delayed 20minutes, you now probably have a WHOLE train full of unhappy peeps, some clearly with one or two drinks under their belts, so is it worth it?  By locking the "passenger" in question on board, you are possibly creating an even bigger safety problem, as it could turn ugly, putting Guard & other customers at risk.

I was once told that the Guards job is as easy or as hard as you want to make it.  While some I know were probably referring to hiding, I personally agree it is as easy/hard as you want it, but because of the way you handle the public.  If you go into that situation all guns blazing, then trouble (at that time of night/service) will not be hard to find.

It might stick at the back of my throat sometimes that some members of the public "get away with it" when you'd love the police to drag them off and give them some justice, however there really is a bigger picture to consider with other customers, services, and cost to business (safety first yes, but just to make a point of having someone arrested costing the company ^,000's in delay minutes etc is not going to put you in a good light.)

I should add, I don't work HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), only Donkeys 

[Tim]

IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), on the "hiding away to aviod potentially abusive passenger" point, the blame comes back to management.

I understand perfectly well why Guards do it and wouldn't want to take a risk to my personal safety over a few fares, but why do you think people behave so badly on late trains and so rarely have tickets - its because they know that the guard will be hiding and so they can get away with it.  it is a vicious circle which needs to be broken.  and management needs to do this with extra staff, police involvement station checks (if someone is going to get thumped better it happens at a station where help is at hand then on a train)

If staff are too scared to do their job this is the kind of thing the Unions ought to be striking over is it not?

[LiskeardRich]

how much extra would it cost to put security on late night trains to help protect revenue, staff and other passengers, pubs, clubs, and even mcdonalds have security where trouble is likely, and if a late night train is as described above then it would be in the best interests of all except the money pots to have some form of security present on board these services where trouble is frequent occurring. if i was on a late train and other passengers became abrupt/ violent etc then i'd expect FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to step in and stop the trouble rather than leave me having a unpleasant journey, after all i'm a full fare paying passenger, why should i endure a journey of abrupt other passengers?

[Oxman]

Regarding keeping train doors locked whilst waiting for the police, the situation described was very poor practice. Best practice is to go through Control to arrange police attention and not to announce anything. Control can then arrange for the train to be held outside the station until the police arrive. That way, the trouble makers on the train do not know what is going on, and can be delivered straight into waiting hands. When the train arrives, the guard will usually only open one door, to allow the police on, and then open the rest a minute or two later, after the culprits have been identified. 

Its not unusual for police to also request that a train be held to await their arrival, if they know there is someone they want onboard.

I doubt that holding a train outside a station could be called false imprisonment - no different from being on a failed or delayed train!

[inspector_blakey]

I doubt that holding a train outside a station could be called false imprisonment - no different from being on a failed or delayed train!

That's understood. It just struck me at the time that keeping a trainload of passengers locked up in a station and preventing anyone from leaving of their own free will was an issue of potentially questionable legality!

[Oxman]

Quite possibly - but would be an interesting court action. False imprisonment, or helping police with their enquiries?!

[IndustryInsider]

Regarding keeping train doors locked whilst waiting for the police, the situation described was very poor practice. Best practice is to go through Control to arrange police attention and not to announce anything. Control can then arrange for the train to be held outside the station until the police arrive. That way, the trouble makers on the train do not know what is going on, and can be delivered straight into waiting hands. When the train arrives, the guard will usually only open one door, to allow the police on, and then open the rest a minute or two later, after the culprits have been identified. 

Quite agree that's the most sensible way of dealing with such an incident.  The only time that it's appropriate to lie to the punters over the PA^▸ (Public Address) - 'delayed by a signal failure' and then after the culprits have been apprehended you apologise again and tell them the real reason!

[hornbeam]

well got the reply this week- very standard. Said they will have a word with the driver- even through I stated it was the guard at fault, so didnt even read it correctly. Thought there would be no point and there wasn't. looking forward to the next meet the Manager at Reading. Moaned last year about the attude of some staff (and passengers! ). well rubbish service from a rubbish company.

[inspector_blakey]

I've found in the past that in general you will always receive some kind of "standard" letter in the first instance, roughly tailored to the complaint you made. However, if you then call FGW^▸ (First Great Western) customer services with the case reference or reply to them explaining why their letter has not answered your complaint, the case then seems often to be "escalated" and investigated more thoroughly by a supervisor, so that might be worth a try.

[Btline]

I was tempted to write into FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to praise a member of staff, but decided not to due to their woeful Customer Service replies (if they even bother).

The member of staff in question was working a very late holiday time HST^▸ (High Speed Train) from Penzance to London, and passed through the train constantly counting numbers so he could book a coach for Weymouth bound passengers. He also advised many other passengers and even organised for a taxi to be ready at Westbury for someone who was worried they would miss their ferry. In between this, he made constant announcements about connecting to the Brighton train etc, did the SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) at stations and even dealt with a passenger taken ill at the buffet (by asking for a doctor on the tannoy). It must have been a tiring day - I hope he drank a whole bottle of wine when he got home! Oh - he didn't check fares, but I'll let him off...

Why should I bother writing in if they don'y reply/read it quickly and reply with mistakes? And I don't want to send it to the Managing Director, (the only way to actually be guaranteed a response) as his inbox will be cluttered enough.

[inspector_blakey]

The fact that the replies are often bodged together from standard paragraphs actually does't necessaily mean that the communication hasn't been read or acted on. Agreed it doesn't necessarily give the best impression, but the fault lies largely with the system in which customer service staff have a relatively short quota of time per complaint.

If either complaints or praise are received for a member of staff I believe that where the staff member can be identified from the information provided those comments are passed on to their line manager. In the Andrew Haines era I think staff who were named in letters of praise also received a modest cash bonus, although I don't know if that's the case anymore.

So if I were you Btline I'd send that letter/email. You will probably get a standard "thank you" response fired back at you but your comments will almost certainly get read and find their way to the manager responsible for the staff member concerned.

[Super Guard]

So if I were you Btline I'd send that letter/email. You will probably get a standard "thank you" response fired back at you but your comments will almost certainly get read and find their way to the manager responsible for the staff member concerned.

All praise/complaints where a member of staff can be identified are passed down the line to the line manager and onto the staff member in question.