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Author Topic: Another HST looks set to be 'Turbotised' from December  (Read 27734 times)
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2010, 15:55:50 »

How about:  5.  Bring back Adelante's on selected Cotswold Line trains on a cheaper lease deal than before, to avoid them sitting in sidings rusting.

Though Chris does make a strong case for the bleak reality of options 1-4 if that doesn't happen!

Going back to the press release, you'd have thought that someone might go through the website quietly deleting stuff that looks embarrassing for FGW (First Great Western) a few years down the line (so to speak!) - not only the triumphant talk about InterCity quality trains on the Cotswold Line, but also all the faff about improving punctuality by keeping 90mph trains off of 125mph tracks.  There's nearly as many Turbos on the main line as there ever has been - perhaps even more as the hourly Bedwyn's now run main line when in the Thames Trains era they ran relief line.  So, what's changed?
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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2010, 16:10:38 »

There's also the cost of running the train on Network Rail's rails to take into account!

5 coaches is 66% dearer than 3 coaches....cost is per axle, I believe.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2010, 16:44:33 »

Crickey - someone replace those 166's with 2-car 165's quick then...  Roll Eyes
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ChrisB
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« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2010, 16:47:07 »

ho, ho, ho!
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inspector_blakey
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« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2010, 16:59:55 »

A 2-car Pacer would be cheaper...  Tongue

On a more serious note, are track access charges really only calculated by number of axles? I thought they were weighted (no pun intended) to take into account the axle loadings of different vehicles and consequent wear on the track. This is certainly one oft-quoted reason why loco-haulage may be a prohibitively expensive option compared to DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit)/EMU (Electric Multiple Unit) usage, since a loco axle-loading is generally much higher than for a unit. I can't believe that track access charges for a class 67 running light are the same as those for a 153, and if they are then that's crazy!
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ChrisB
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« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2010, 17:07:07 »

Oh no, quite possibly as you state....but as there is a weight to axel ratio, a 5 coach anything will cost more than a 3car turbo.
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« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2010, 17:14:38 »

The biggest downside to the turboisation of the Cotswold line is it reduces the number of turbos that should be used to bolster the TV line services from 3 car to 6 car the TV route is recognised as being one of the most over crowded routes in UK (United Kingdom)
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ChrisB
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« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2010, 17:28:01 »

I think there's enough turbo availability off-peak. No one is suggesting any peak trains be turbo-ised.

But no one wants turbos on the Cotswold Line, nor for the line to become a 'branch' line either.
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smokey
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« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2010, 17:30:43 »

If track access charge is worked out by the wear to the rails by the rolling stock, then the 14X class railbuses should be the most costly stock going!
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Richard Fairhurst
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« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2010, 17:45:33 »

I don't see much point in talking about "Turbotisation" (hmmm - always thought there was something fishy, rancid even, about 165s and 166s) of the Cotswold Line in isolation.

FGW (First Great Western) won't ask for five Adelantes because it wants to give us Cotswold passengers a more comfortable ride. And even if they did, DfT» (Department for Transport - about) wouldn't agree.

But FGW may well ask for five Adelantes because its whole fleet is overstretched, and these five Adelantes are pretty much the only affordable stock looking for a home right now. No matter where on the FGW network they're deployed, five Adelantes will free up other units to provide much-needed extra capacity.

It just happens that the most suitable place for these five Adelantes is, indeed, the Cotswold Line. But the "HST (High Speed Train) vs turbo vs Adelante" debate is pretty much incidental to whether we'll ever get them.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2010, 20:52:44 »

As usual with the railway industry the methodology for calculating track access charges is ridiculously complicated!

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/regulatory%20documents/access%20charges%20reviews/consultations%20on%20future%20charging/variable%20track%20access%20charges/c%20-ttci%20draft%20methodology%20report%20december%202007.pdf
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« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2010, 21:55:44 »

Couldn't that HST (High Speed Train) set that whizzed down to Plymouth yesterday be used for the Cotswold Line?  Grin  Grin
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« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2010, 22:31:52 »

Quote
Semantics.

Indeed. No-one made FGW (First Great Western) come out with all the hubristic stuff in that press release, they did it of their own free will. Unlike the subsequent back-tracking in the past two years, where their only public pronouncements on removal of HSTs (High Speed Train) and the subsequent appearance of the 09.29 from Moreton (despite the 166 on the 08.58 having "the right level of accommodation" just months earlier) have been as a result of questions from me and other journalists.

FGW's ability to offer 180s for Oxford and Cotswold services was widely understood at the time of the bidding to operate the Thames Valley services from 2004-6 to have been the knockout blow that put Thames Trains out of the running, since all it was offering was two more years of Turbos and a cost-cutting regime to extract every last penny going.

Quote
no one can justify running HSTs around carrying mostly air these days
.

Unless they are running miles and miles as empty stock between Bristol and Hereford, or working back to London after operating the 15.51 and 17.50, for example. Maybe we should Turbo-ise them too?

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So, for a majority of its journey (lets say for over a hour continously), which trips are currently  seriously overcrowded? I think a 166 is reasonable for journeys of less than an hour
.

How do you define overcrowded? If you mean a 166 on the 08.58 from Malvern where people are somehow wedged into every seat past Charlbury and those boarding at Hanborough have to stand to Oxford then no, there's no problem at all. But I'm afraid Joe Public doesn't see it like that. They remember being wedged into seats with nowhere for their arms to go. I would avoid the 09.54 from Malvern like the plague south of Oxford as it's a lone Turbo with no extra seats added at Oxford to soak up passengers joining there. And any journey between the Cotswold Line and London is more than an hour - or doesn't overcrowding on the leg between London and Oxford count because it's not too bad on the bit of the journey further west?

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IN the peak, all stock is utilised, so a different route would be losing out to gain one for the Cotswolds.

But it doesn't matter that we lost out last year so someone else could have an HST?

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Exeter - PNZ, I believe, and some journeys between the two - operated at the start by HSTs, now 158s and below. And wasn't there a Bedwyn HST once?

Eh? Since when has it not been possible to catch an HST between Exeter and Penzance? I really can't be bothered to count how many there are each day. There have always been dmu stoppers on that route and they are used by people making short journeys, not the full run, plus the dmus used are all refreshed, not the ragtag band FGW inherited from Wessex. Bedwyn still has a couple of HSTs a day each way, much as it always did. What I am talking about is the wholesale removal of better quality stock from a service, which is what has happened to the Cotswold Line.

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The problem over HST v turbo usage has been exacerbated by the wish to increase services along the line, thus spreading out the number of passengers / train.

What wish? The current pattern and frequency of services is quite clearly descended from that provided by FGW and Thames pre-2004, with minor extensions/tweaks here and there (and no-one is going to object to Turbos on a few extra short workings in future out as far as Moreton). By 2004, it was obvious that the 166s had become victims of their own success in driving up traffic over the previous decade and could no longer cope with demand on the peak and shoulder-of-peak trains they were being used on. Hence the attraction of the 180s when the franchise bids were being assessed. A better quality environment for passengers with a handy few extra seats, which made all the difference on a number of services.

As for the four options, even our cost-cutting Tory MPs (Member of Parliament) wouldn't wear 1, number 2 would wreck Cotswold Line patronage at a stroke and waste two decades of improvements, never mind the redoubling investment, and if someone actually put some time and effort into marketing (which is something FGW is still struggling to get right) then you would fill more seats and get more money in without needing to increase the fares - maybe they should ask Julian Crow to tell someone up here what he is doing down in the West Country, since it seems to be working.

No-one is suggesting HSTs on everything, just that there are services, in particular the 08.58 from Malvern, that need a high-capacity train throughout the journey, especially if it is moved forward half-an-hour next year, back to its old slot, thus putting 40-50 people currently using the 09.29 from Moreton back on the same train as all those from further west. And if FGW hadn't done such a thorough job of driving off Moreton, Honeybourne, Evesham and Pershore commuters into Worcester with appalling timekeeping in 2006-8, then they might find a healthy number of people using the balancing early service out of London, at least on that part of its journey.

You seem to be suggesting FGW might as well throw in the towel between London and Oxford (and the eastern end of the Cotswold Line) and submit to the mighty Chiltern. Where what I'd suggest is that they go back to providing a genuine express service between Oxford and London, taking full advantage of what an HST can do, ie more than 100mph, without a thunking great engine under the floor of each coach. 45 minutes to London looks a lot better than 65, even if 65 comes with a cheaper fare attached.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2010, 11:14:03 »

Whilst leafing through a timetable familiarisation booklet for the new timetable I noticed that it states that the 11:21 Paddington to Great Malvern and return working at 14:34 from Great Malvern to Paddington will revert to a 3-car turbo from the December timetable change.  That means that all Great Malvern trains (save for the first one in the morning and last train of the evening) will be worked by Turbos.

The train in question loads very heavily between Slough and Paddington as a HST (High Speed Train) on the return working with Slough to London commuters, but it does also carry around a lot of fresh air for much of the journey.

I'm pleased to report that, at the very least, common sense prevailed and on the return journey the 3-car Turbo does attach to an empty 2-car at Oxford making a 5-car formation for the busiest stretch of the journey between Oxford and Paddington.  A Train Manager told me that it's reverting back to a HST at the summer timetable change, though we'll have to see whether that happens or not.
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Andy W
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« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2010, 10:02:05 »

I find this debate so depressing and demonstrates exactly why I can never see FGW (First Great Western) providing a satisfactory service on the Cotswold line other than to commuters.

There are basically three seating configurations and have been for many years:-

These apply to either suburban / commuter travel (suggest up to 1 hour) or to longer distance journeys (1 hour +)

2+1 for First class ^ long distance
2+2 for First class Suburban / Standard class for other travel
3+2 for Standard class suburban / commuter travel.

Great Malvern ^ Paddington falls clearly into the long distance category well over two hours yet FGW clearly are happy to provide commuter levels of accommodation. I guess the rot started when some geographic illiterate decided that the Thames franchise extended to Worcester / Malvern and the class 180 was procured to resolve the problem inherited with the Turbos. I imagine this is one reason why FGW won the franchise (I^m sure there are others).

FGW were then allowed to ditch the 180s with no suitable replacement other than to use HSTs (High Speed Train) which are not really fit for purpose off-peak. They have then reneged on that commitment to return to the Turbos in an underhand drip fed basis.

As far as I can see there are several options

1). Honour the original agreement & provide 180s (using the argument put up by Richard Fairhurst if needs be). They were budgeted for in the franchise tender so sorry but ^they cost to much to run^ argument is irrelevant, the time to do the costings was then not now.

2) Refurbish Turbos with the appropriate long distance seating configuration for Cotswold services (I know they won^t do that!)

3) Get a similar configuration to WSR and run a push-pull service with loco/DVT(resolve) configuration.

4) Can they split a couple of HSTs to run with a class 43 + DVT or DBSO (Driving Brake Standard Open (carriage)) plus 4 or 5 coaches?

5) Remove the Cotswold line from the old Thames/FGW franchise and put it out to tender.

Out of interest what additional stock are they planning to get when the line is re-doubled?
 


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