Confusion over validity of return half of ticket, Peterborough -> Melksham

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Sometimes we're called upon to be a travel agent ... and so it was last night, when a delegate attending an event that's running at our hotel in Melksham approached me to ask about return trains on Friday morning.   Here's the story.

Last Sunday, he was dropped off at Peterborough station and asked for a return to Melksham, stating that he would be travelling back on Friday morning. For 79.20, he was sold a Super OffPeak Return, valid "Any Permitted Route" ... and he travelled to Melksham, duely arriving in the town (population around 24000) on the only Sunday southbound train at 18:44.

"What time train can I get back?" he asked me. Now - I know the times (06:41 and 07:17) of the only two trains from Melksham in the morning, but I wasn't sure on ticket validity.  Looking on the web site, neither train was being offered to me at super offpeak prices so, puzzled, I called up First Great Western to ask them selecting the phone option for enquiries about tickets already purchased.

The gentleman who I spoke to told me that the ticket was NOT valid on either the 06:41 or the 07:17.  But it was acceptable on the train at 19:47, and my customer could use that.   I pointed out that the ticket had been bought with the morning being specified, and that 19:47 wasn't the morning (it would get to Peterborough long after his last onward bus into the fens!).  He told me that my customer had to go back to the station where he bought the ticket to get it changed. I asked about getting it changed on the train and he said that wasn't allowed, and if he got on the train without having had it changed first he would have to pay a full regular single fare - that he should go to Melksham station early and get it dealt with there before he got on the train.  I asked if he knew Melksham station, and he assured me that he did - he was a First Great Western expert  - but I then had to tell him that Melksham is unstaffed.  When he then said that the train conductor could help, I asked what the extra cost would be and he told me it would be up to the conductor whether to charge a full single or apply some sort of discression bearing in mind the wrong ticket had been sold.

Hardly a good solution, so I phoned National Rail to see if they could be more explicit / give me a proper price.  And from talking to their person, it appears that the ticket is valid out of King's Cross from 09:29 to 14:27, and again after 18:15, and on any train up from Melksham to connect into those trains.  So it's actually valid on either morning departure.

Two different stories - how to check which is correct?   I couldn't re-run the booking through the web to see what I was offered, as the outward journey date has happened but I did do it for journeys for next Sunday and the following Friday and , sure enough, the 79.20 fare is valid as stated by National Rail on the morning trains from Melksham.

Some questions ... I wonder if I can get inputs here today prior to my customer travelling:

a) Who is right - National Rail and the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) website for the week ahead, or the customer service adviser at FGW?

b) The Train Managers on the train from Melksham, and the connections from Swindon to London, will be working for First Great Western like the first gentleman I spoke with.  How can we be re-assured that they demand that my customer buy a full standard single all the way?

c) What's the best way to get proper, authoritative answers to queries like this?  I would have thought that if the web site doens't provide the information, phoning up the people who run the trains should be the way to do it, but it looks rather as if their representative was looking to make them a further 90 pounds when the ticket already held is valid.

I took the names of the staff involved - not published here due to forum policies.  I am not escalating this by email with FGW at this stage, as by the time I got a reply it would be academic 

[Brucey]

As this is a "walk-up" fare, changes by excess fare are permitted.  "The Manual" also allows this.  I've PMed Graham with a few more details about this.

The fares manual says this against the ticket, which I can't quite comprehend

Super Off-Peak tickets issued
for journeys commencing       
OUTSIDE the Network Area for 
travel via London, take the   
restrictions from the origin 
station to London and return.
Unless shown otherwise on the
following pages, they are     
unrestricted between London   
and the destination station   
and return.                   

[eightf48544]

Brucey is that English you are quoting?

I take it mean you can't travel from Peterborugh to London and back in Peak times, but can travel from your ultimate destination and back to London at anytime.

Have you found any "otherwise on the following pages"?

Or have I completely misinterpreted it?

Just to complicate things isn't  Peterborough a Network station? 

[ChrisB]

Yes, that makes sense to me - the restrictions that apply to this ticket are Peterborough tio London, and any train that connects into allowed trains on the return from Kings Cross are valid.

Effectively, it is an '+And Connections' ticket.

Peterborough is outside the old 'Network South East' area, isn't it? Network Cards aren't valid at Peterborough.....are they?

[paul7575]

Yes - Peterborough is outside the Network [South East] area, just.

I believe with cases like this it is important to use the journey planner for the correct, ie Peterborough to Melksham and return direction. The results of a NRES^▸ (National Rail Enquiry Service) query are different if you enter Melksham to Peterborough and return, IYSWIM.   Maybe this is the same with the enquires operator's system, so the question (or his actions following the right question) affects the result? 

The former approach does shows the Super Offpeak Return as valid on the early trains, connecting with the 0930 and 1000 services from Kings Cross, as the restriction suggests. 

So I agree your staff member is wrong.

Paul

[Brucey]

I believe with cases like this it is important to use the journey planner for the correct, ie Peterborough to Melksham and return direction. The results of a NRES^▸ (National Rail Enquiry Service) query are different if you enter Melksham to Peterborough and return, IYSWIM.   Maybe this is the same with the enquires operator's system, so the question (or his actions following the right question) affects the result? 

Very true.  In the PBO to MKM^» (Melksham (Station code) - next trains) direction, restriction code 1L applies.  In the MKM to PBO direction, restriction 5A is in place.  These are both different, so depends which way the ticket was purchase as to which restriction applies.

[eightf48544]

Very true.  In the PBO to MKM^» (Melksham (Station code) - next trains) direction, restriction code 1L applies.  In the MKM to PBO direction, restriction 5A is in place.  These are both different, so depends which way the ticket was purchase as to which restriction applies.

1L, 5A!  On the proper Railway 1L didn't exist and 5A was Crewe North.



Edit note: Quote mark amended, for clarity. CfN.

[inspector_blakey]

Whoever told you that the ticket could not be changed except at the station where it was bought needs a slap, plain and simple. I would guess that selecting the option for enquiries about tickets already purchased took you through to a "trainline" helpdesk somewhere, as I'd be 99% sure that FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s own customer service folks would give you the correct answer. Whenever I call with a query like that I always tend to select the FGW customer services option since they're generally on the ball and happy to answer that sort of query, and will generally go to the trouble of finding out from someone who knows if they can't answer the question immediately.

It's perfectly acceptable to purchase an excess to change a super-off peak to an off-peak or anytime ticket (or for that matter to a more expensive route), there's no surcharge for doing so and if there's no open ticket office at your origin then you are entitled to do this on-board, since TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) can't issue an excess fare. Were it an advance fare then changes are more tricky, and I would guess that a call centre operator at the trainline assumed this is what you had. But even then I think they're talking tosh because as I understand it they can be changed at any station as long as you have the original ticket with you.

Worth an escalation I reckon!

[grahame]

Many thanks for the various feedbacks ... my customer will leave armed with knowledge and printouts, and it'll be interesting to see if his ticket is just accepted (as it should be) or if it's queried anywhere - I've asked him to let me know.

I find the provision of incorrect (and potentially expensive) information by someone who I reached via the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Customer Service number to be very concerning;  I suspect that he didn't know, and didn't know how to find out, and didn't want to admit that ... so came up with a safe option that the ticket could be changed at the original issuing station, and that my customer could buy another ticket to make the journey.

The suggestion that I escalate it ... I have plenty else to do with my time.  I understand how this works now, so I can advise other customers in the future. And this thread is pubicly visible so if anyone else gets involved in a discussion about this, at least it's somewhat published.   I would be very happy if someone appropriate within First wanted to take a further look at it and asked me for the names of the individual involved to help track down the events and tell him about these tickets, but I won't be standing outside the First cage and rattling the bars myself. I would rather put my rather limited time into helping get a sensible train service back on the TransWilts line, which would benefit around 300,000 journeys a year, which I think is a goal with rather more significance.

[JayMac]

Bit late for this bit of advice as your delegate is off home this morning. But I'll post just in case it's seen by grahame before the guy checks out.

If there is a disagreement with differing interpretations of the ticketing restrictions and the on-train staff try to ching the passenger for an excess or new ticket, then I'd suggest that the passenger doesn't pay and requests issue of an Unpaid Fare Notice instead. Your delegate will be legally obliged to provide his name and address though. It's much easier to dispute a UPFN^▸ (Un Paid Fare Notice (used on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)))) at a later date than try to get your money back.

[grahame]

Bit late for this bit of advice as your delegate is off home this morning. But I'll post just in case it's seen by grahame before the guy checks out.

JIT .... Just in time 

Thanks!

[grahame]

From my email this morning ...

Managed to get home okay, no major issues apart from the ticket inspector on the 7.17 trying to tell me the ticket wasn't valid, until I showed him the information you gave me! :-)

Thank you!

Another attempt, then, by a member of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ticket team who are supposed to know about these things to reject a valid ticket - presumably in favour of selling another ticket (and getting commission on it?) that would have been more expensive.