Poor Regulation?

[whole diary]

[SDS]

Well like I said, thats how I was always told it worked.
FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would dump the delay mins back at NR^» (Network Rail - home page) in this case.

[ChrisB]

THat is the way I've had it explained to me too.

[IndustryInsider]

SDS Pad is right in so much that the basic principal is that should a train be delayed, then another train on time won't be delayed by it as a result, but fortunately common sense does still apply with train regulation and the principal is not always rigidly enforced.

For example, a Bournemouth bound XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service at Oxford which is expected to depart at 12:38 rather that 12:16 would usually run in front of the 12:37 stopper from Oxford.  Yes, the 12:37 would be delayed by around 4 minutes as a result, but as it dwells at Didcot for 10 minutes it easily recovers that time.  Delaying the Bournemouth service even further would mean it affects other services more further along the route (some of which might also be FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services), so it makes sense to give it a clear run.  Also, the passenger benefits as if you're intending to change onto the Didcot service at Oxford, you're not faced with a 30-minute wait.  Situations as explained by Donkey Guard also apply - especially later in the evening when it might be a last connection of the day, and expensive taxis would need to be provided otherwise.

In the case of the Swansea train that started this thread off, it would appear that it might have been more sensible to hold the stopper at Westbury for a few minutes, but in the case of diverted trains the usual precedents may not have been made over time and as such a 'mistake' was made.

[John R]

In the case of the Swansea train that started this thread off, it would appear that it might have been more sensible to hold the stopper at Westbury for a few minutes, but in the case of diverted trains the usual precedents may not have been made over time and as such a 'mistake' was made.

The odd thing was, that the Swansea train was held for at least 5 minutes to let the stopper through. It need not have held up the stopper at all as it was running to time, and was booked ahead of it. That's the piece of the jigsaw that just seemed crazy.     

[grahame]

In the case of the Swansea train that started this thread off, it would appear that it might have been more sensible to hold the stopper at Westbury for a few minutes, but in the case of diverted trains the usual precedents may not have been made over time and as such a 'mistake' was made.

The odd thing was, that the Swansea train was held for at least 5 minutes to let the stopper through. It need not have held up the stopper at all as it was running to time, and was booked ahead of it. That's the piece of the jigsaw that just seemed crazy.     

Very late in the day for this thread to wonder ... but could it have been stopped initially because of a conflicting movement coming from Trowbridge into Westbury, and / or another train ahead which had already gone towards Trowbridge, but not cleared the section?

[John R]

Certainly not the former,as we would have seen it pass. The latter is possible, although I checked the OLDB and nothing appeared to be obviously ahead IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly). As you imply, it's probably too late in the day now for us to find out what happened. 

[readytostart]

For example, a Bournemouth bound XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service at Oxford which is expected to depart at 12:38 rather that 12:16 would usually run in front of the 12:37 stopper from Oxford.  Yes, the 12:37 would be delayed by around 4 minutes as a result, but as it dwells at Didcot for 10 minutes it easily recovers that time.  Delaying the Bournemouth service even further would mean it affects other services more further along the route (some of which might also be FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services), so it makes sense to give it a clear run.  Also, the passenger benefits as if you're intending to change onto the Didcot service at Oxford, you're not faced with a 30-minute wait. 

In my experience the xx:37 is almost always let out in front of the BMH train, in some cases it will stand on the platform for five minutes awaiting a right time departure while the Bomo service is sat outside the station, infuriating for me as I know a 25 minute late departure from New Street can be recovered.
Here's a situation from the other week: twenty odd minute late departure from Birmingham, reasonable run along the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) to Coventry and onto the branch to Leamington, I phone control to see if we could be pathed in front of the xx:00 Reading terminator (that has more pathing time and runs via SOL) and this was done. Cracking run through Banbury, only to be held outside OXF^» (Oxford - next trains) for the local, Swindon B routed us onto the Up Main at Didcot and a full pelt run to RDG^‡(resolve), only to be held outside the station for seven minutes, what should trundle along the Up Relief and enter the station in front of us but the NCL-RDG terminator. We then get held on the platform for a further seven minutes for a set of empties going to the shed on the triangle and subsequently followed the Poole local from Basingstoke, terminating at Southampton for a right time back working.

Last night I has a right time presentation at OXF at 21:14 only to be told the 21:07 was still on the platform!

[ChrisB]

Sure was - I was there watching them mucking about....

[inspector_blakey]

Sounds like things have changed at Oxford in the last couple of years. Back in the day we used to have an xx16 southbound XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service and an xx21 local service to London. The xx21 service was the one that gave the hourly connection at Didcot into a Bristol service, but that connection was only a 5 minute one.

What almost invariably seemed to happen was that the xx16 XC service would be running a few minutes late and be prioritized over the xx21 local, which meant that by the time the Turbo had been extricated from the carriage sidings after waiting for the XC train the xx21 was generally a good 6 - 7 minutes late. This probably wasn't a huge problem in terms of that train "making charter" at Paddington for the puncuality figures, but was a royal pain in the backside for those of us heading west who were then faced with an extra change at Swindon as well as a 15 minute wait both there and at Didcot.

[IndustryInsider]

It would help if the permissive passenger working was used more often now that it's been reinstated.  The stopper could then pull out of the sidings and sit in the platform behind the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service and depart about 2 minutes earlier as a result.

[coachflyer]

The normal patten at Oxford now is fasts at 01 and 31, stoppers at 07 and 37 with xc at 16 and 46.

The stoppers have up to 10 mins layover at Didcot to allow the xc to go in front up the relief.

[inspector_blakey]

Understood, thanks for that. Things work much better at Oxford now, at least from the point of view of travelling to Bristol or South Wales!

I was just using an example that happened to me many, many times a few years ago when those were the timings to illustrate that it's not always as straightforward as an on-time local getting precedence over a slightly delayed long-distance service.

[Louis94]

It would help if the permissive passenger working was used more often now that it's been reinstated.  The stopper could then pull out of the sidings and sit in the platform behind the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service and depart about 2 minutes earlier as a result.

As far as im aware the route can not be cleared into the station from the sidings while the station starting signal is set. So therefore would require the starting signal to be at red while the stopper comes into the platform, which could delay the XC service even more.

[IndustryInsider]

As far as im aware the route can not be cleared into the station from the sidings while the station starting signal is set. So therefore would require the starting signal to be at red while the stopper comes into the platform, which could delay the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service even more.

Hmmm, I'm not at all sure that's the case, but there are all sorts of quirks with specific signals and interlocking, so I'll ask one of the signallers at Oxford when I'm next up that way for clarification.

[Louis94]

Yes there is! Just thinking about it, down here in Devon i'm sure i've seen it done before some places, but not at others. With so many different signals and interlockings, etc its difficult to tell.