Is it time to campaign for an Open Access Operator in The GW area

[whole diary]

[vacman]

On the subject of Whitby, it may only have 4 trains per day BUT they are timed to suit the school kids and workers going INTO and OUT OF Whitby and i'm led to believe that the peak trains on that branch are relatively busy?

[smokey]

Whitby trains are well used but unlike Newquay there are run at the times when most people will use then. Many local station ares on Whitby branch have NO bus service, NOT in the Winter anyway.

PS, Vacman it's a very scenic branch.

[vacman]

Only been on part of that line once, about midday in May a couple of years ago and the train was wedged, it was a 2 car 156 out of interest. I think one point that we're missing is that despite a dire service the Newquay branch is stil VERY busy from Easter to October, and quite often the first one out from par (starts from Plymouth) and the only afternoon train back (which goes to Plymouth) are usually quite well loaded all year round, OK, it aint packed on winter, far from, but i've never seen them empty! UNLIKE the Looe branch!

[Andy]

Probably take about 35 mins via St Dennis.

If it happens, with a 35 min journey time to St Austell, ( making it 40 mins to Par on the main line, as opposed to 50 via Bugle?),  I can see the headlines in the Western Morning News "Cornwall's High Speed 1 brings London 15 minutes closer to Newquay"!!

When these plans were mooted, what were the proposals for accommodating the branch trains at St Austell station. Also, does anything of St Dennis station (one did exist way back when, didn't it?) remain? I've never seen any photos of the site.

[oooooo]

Probably take about 35 mins via St Dennis.

When these plans were mooted, what were the proposals for accommodating the branch trains at St Austell station. Also, does anything of St Dennis station (one did exist way back when, didn't it?) remain? I've never seen any photos of the site.

The line up from Burngullow Junction (on the Cornish mainline) to St.Dennis Jn (on the Newquay branch) has NEVER had a passenger service, there has never been a station at St.Dennis. St.Dennis Jn which is actually a good mile from St.Dennis had signalbox/passing loop etc but no station.

The proposals for the St.Austell route were trains to still run to/from Par in order to change lines/reverse therefore no work needed at St.Austell. It was also intended to cut several mainline stops at Par out as passengers for Newquay would just change at St.Austell.

[Andy]

Probably take about 35 mins via St Dennis.

When these plans were mooted, what were the proposals for accommodating the branch trains at St Austell station. Also, does anything of St Dennis station (one did exist way back when, didn't it?) remain? I've never seen any photos of the site.

The line up from Burngullow Junction (on the Cornish mainline) to St.Dennis Jn (on the Newquay branch) has NEVER had a passenger service, there has never been a station at St.Dennis. St.Dennis Jn which is actually a good mile from St.Dennis had signalbox/passing loop etc but no station.

The proposals for the St.Austell route were trains to still run to/from Par in order to change lines/reverse therefore no work needed at St.Austell. It was also intended to cut several mainline stops at Par out as passengers for Newquay would just change at St.Austell.

Thanks for this clarification. I knew that the St. Dennis line didn't have a passenger service in GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) days but having found an entry on wikipedia (disputed) which stated that it existed, I wondered whether there may have been one back in the mists of time.

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:St_Dennis_railway_station

Thanks also for the info re the plans to run to Par to reverse, which make a lot of sense

[Lee]

Not good Smokey! If anything should be axed, it should be Looe!

I think there is potential to do more to boost passenger numbers on the Looe line. The proposed Park & Ride scheme is one example, if set up in an appropriate manner (yes I have read the reservations of forum members.)

Quote from Insider (link below) :
http://indefenceoffirstgreatwestern.blogspot.com/2007/10/im-back.html

"I've been trying to get a word with Julian Crow about this park and ride idea, although I haven't been able to get hold of him lately.

I do know, however, that it is something that people have been asking for and it is likely to be very useful as we are trying to promote usage on the Looe line. I'll try and bring you more details when I have them."

It should also be noted that the Looe line is well used in the summer months.

[vacman]

Not good Smokey! If anything should be axed, it should be Looe!

I think there is potential to do more to boost passenger numbers on the Looe line. The proposed Park & Ride scheme is one example, if set up in an appropriate manner (yes I have read the reservations of forum members.)

Quote from Insider (link below) :
http://indefenceoffirstgreatwestern.blogspot.com/2007/10/im-back.html

"I've been trying to get a word with Julian Crow about this park and ride idea, although I haven't been able to get hold of him lately.

I do know, however, that it is something that people have been asking for and it is likely to be very useful as we are trying to promote usage on the Looe line. I'll try and bring you more details when I have them."

It should also be noted that the Looe line is well used in the summer months.

The Looe line is busier in summer but is still nowhere near as busy as Newquay and St Ives in summer, the Looe branch in summer is usually manageable with a single 153, even in July and August.

[Lee]

Not good Smokey! If anything should be axed, it should be Looe!

I think there is potential to do more to boost passenger numbers on the Looe line. The proposed Park & Ride scheme is one example, if set up in an appropriate manner (yes I have read the reservations of forum members.)

Quote from Insider (link below) :
http://indefenceoffirstgreatwestern.blogspot.com/2007/10/im-back.html

"I've been trying to get a word with Julian Crow about this park and ride idea, although I haven't been able to get hold of him lately.

I do know, however, that it is something that people have been asking for and it is likely to be very useful as we are trying to promote usage on the Looe line. I'll try and bring you more details when I have them."

It should also be noted that the Looe line is well used in the summer months.

The Looe line is busier in summer but is still nowhere near as busy as Newquay and St Ives in summer, the Looe branch in summer is usually manageable with a single 153, even in July and August.

It would be interesting to hear Richard B's view on that, as he had a row with Alistair Darling which resulted in the claim (by Richard B) that the guard couldnt get down the Looe train to sell tickets because it was so packed in summer.

[vacman]

Not good Smokey! If anything should be axed, it should be Looe!

I think there is potential to do more to boost passenger numbers on the Looe line. The proposed Park & Ride scheme is one example, if set up in an appropriate manner (yes I have read the reservations of forum members.)

Quote from Insider (link below) :
http://indefenceoffirstgreatwestern.blogspot.com/2007/10/im-back.html

"I've been trying to get a word with Julian Crow about this park and ride idea, although I haven't been able to get hold of him lately.

I do know, however, that it is something that people have been asking for and it is likely to be very useful as we are trying to promote usage on the Looe line. I'll try and bring you more details when I have them."

It should also be noted that the Looe line is well used in the summer months.

The Looe line is busier in summer but is still nowhere near as busy as Newquay and St Ives in summer, the Looe branch in summer is usually manageable with a single 153, even in July and August.

It would be interesting to hear Richard B's view on that, as he had a row with Alistair Darling which resulted in the claim (by Richard B) that the guard couldnt get down the Looe train to sell tickets because it was so packed in summer.

That probably was the case, what i'm saying is that even with a 153 you'll never get to the point of leaving passengers behind on the Looe line, where as I remember one bank holiday when Wessex sent a single 153 out to Newquay, when they arrived there were over 300 passengers waiting on the platform, the guard rang control and they said they'd send a bus, trying to fob the 200 passengers off that couldnt fit on, the guard then refused to move the train until the busses arrived! couldn't imagine the same situation at Looe!

[Lee]

Not good Smokey! If anything should be axed, it should be Looe!

I think there is potential to do more to boost passenger numbers on the Looe line. The proposed Park & Ride scheme is one example, if set up in an appropriate manner (yes I have read the reservations of forum members.)

Quote from Insider (link below) :
http://indefenceoffirstgreatwestern.blogspot.com/2007/10/im-back.html

"I've been trying to get a word with Julian Crow about this park and ride idea, although I haven't been able to get hold of him lately.

I do know, however, that it is something that people have been asking for and it is likely to be very useful as we are trying to promote usage on the Looe line. I'll try and bring you more details when I have them."

It should also be noted that the Looe line is well used in the summer months.

The Looe line is busier in summer but is still nowhere near as busy as Newquay and St Ives in summer, the Looe branch in summer is usually manageable with a single 153, even in July and August.

It would be interesting to hear Richard B's view on that, as he had a row with Alistair Darling which resulted in the claim (by Richard B) that the guard couldnt get down the Looe train to sell tickets because it was so packed in summer.

That probably was the case, what i'm saying is that even with a 153 you'll never get to the point of leaving passengers behind on the Looe line, where as I remember one bank holiday when Wessex sent a single 153 out to Newquay, when they arrived there were over 300 passengers waiting on the platform, the guard rang control and they said they'd send a bus, trying to fob the 200 passengers off that couldnt fit on, the guard then refused to move the train until the busses arrived! couldn't imagine the same situation at Looe!

View noted.

I have now had time to seek out the RichardB/Alistair Darling disagreement. Quotes from a Times article (17/03/2006, link below) :
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2090057,00.html

Alistair Darling, the Transport Secretary, admitted that he was partly responsible for the West Country cuts. He said: ^I am not seeking to avoid blame. We cannot be in the business of carting fresh air round the country. If we are terrified to go near any service for fear of flak, then sooner or later we will come a cropper.^

Mr Darling said that the Liskeard-to-Looe branch line, in Cornwall, which is losing five of its thirteen daily services, had attracted an average of only nine passengers a train in the twelve months to last April. But the Devon and Cornwall Community Rail Partnership said that Mr Darling was using misleading figures based only on tickets sold.

Richard Burningham, the partnership^s manager, said: ^Trains on the Looe branch are so crowded in summer that the conductor cannot get down the aisle to sell tickets.^

Interestingly, RichardB seems to have partly won the argument. Quote from the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) Review of Community Rail Development Strategy (link below.)
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/strategyfinance/strategy/community/revcomrail?page=3#a1007

2.35 The Looe Valley story is less happy and demonstrates how increases to the number of trains do not guarantee improved patronage. The timetable on this line was changed in Summer 2004 to provide an hourly service. Initially this was followed by a drop in patronage ^ though this has been reversed in Summer 2006. The initial drop was believed to be partly due to changes in the local bus services which can provide access to the town centres of Looe and Liskeard and which are faster than the train service. Although this was disappointing, the trains are still often full during the summer ^ on a typical day in the summer around 600 journeys are made on the branch. Further work is being done on increasing capacity when the trains are full and the timetable is being re-focused on timetabled connections rather than more frequent services.

[vacman]

It's the same story on a lot of summer services with reagards to revenue collection, the hourly service on the Looe branch didn't really work because it was clock face and was timetabled so that it missed some mainline connections by about 2 minutes sometimes! I certainly don't agree with the earlier post by someone saying that Looe should be shut! It may not be the busiest branch but it is still used and there is usually a handfull of people on each daytime service. As for Alastair Darling, well, I couldn't possibly say what I think of him here because it would be a personal attack! 

[ilowyon]

Why can't the government pick someone who actually knows something about what he or she is meant to be in charge of?  Alistair Darling knows as much about railways as I do about cosmetic surgery which isn't a lot!  Each successive government for the last 50 years has been trying to cut Cornwall off the rail network altogether by either scaling down services or threatening to close lines.  Fortunately, they haven't succeeded, so far.  I travelled on the St Ives branch just before Christmas and it was surprising the number of passengers that used the line even at that time of year.  The train even had two carriages!  The Newquay line whilst it is a beautiful and very scenic line, only has 3 or 4 trains a day between Monday and Saturday in the winter and none on a Sunday and hardly a single passenger uses these trains.  How do you market a line like Newquay to Par when hardly anyone uses it or likely to use it because they prefer the comforts of their cars?

[Lee]

Why can't the government pick someone who actually knows something about what he or she is meant to be in charge of?  Alistair Darling knows as much about railways as I do about cosmetic surgery which isn't a lot!

Thankfully, he is not Transport Secretary anymore, although he is now Chancellor..... 

The Newquay line whilst it is a beautiful and very scenic line, only has 3 or 4 trains a day between Monday and Saturday in the winter and none on a Sunday and hardly a single passenger uses these trains.  How do you market a line like Newquay to Par when hardly anyone uses it or likely to use it because they prefer the comforts of their cars?

There have actually been modest increases in the number of passengers recorded at the Par-Newquay halts, albeit from a low base :

Bugle
2004 / 2005 - 1362
2005 / 2006 - 1661

Luxulyan
2004 / 2005 - 791
2005 / 2006 - 1160

Quintrel Downs
2004 / 2005 - 918
2005 / 2006 - 928

Roche
2004 / 2005 - 1137
2005 / 2006 - 1222

St Columb Road
2004 / 2005 - 733
2005 / 2006 - 1031

Unfortunately, this has been accompanied by a drop in passengers at Newquay itself :

Newquay
2004 / 2005 - 83712
2005 / 2006 - 71301

Mind you, it is always dangerous to base assumptions on official figures, as Darling well knows....

[grahame]

Whitby trains are well used but unlike Newquay there are run at the times when most people will use then.

And that is critical where the service is sparse.    Example:

Let me see ... I'm thinking of an intermediate station which currently has not four but two trains each day in each direction. Northbound at 07:17 and 19:50, Southbound at 06:43 and 19:11.  Journeys, to and through, I'm guessing, around 6,000 per annum (that's from our own counts).

Looking back to 2006 there were just over four (i.e. five trains in each direction each day. Northbound at 05:52, 07:45, 13:35, 17:02 and 21:33, and Southboound at 06:56, 09:12, 14:49, 18:09 and 22:37.  Much more suitable service .... journeys (according to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) were over 100,000 for that year.

Newquay is not somewhere I know well - but I sould sure as heck welcome an operator (Open access or otherwise) on our line - TransWilts - who would take this traffic which is now latent, and would grow dramatically from the 2006 figures [hypothysis based on historic and flow analysis]