Fares question

[whole diary]

[grahame]

A Chippenham to Westbury ticket is valid via the TransWilts or via Bath and Bradford-on-Avon.

So is a Bath to Westbury ticket valid via Chippenham and the TransWilts as well as via Bradford-on-Avon?

And what about a Chippenham to Bath ticket - am I allowed to travel via Trowbridge?

[Brucey]

So is a Bath to Westbury ticket valid via Chippenham and the TransWilts as well as via Bradford-on-Avon?

No.  Bath Spa to Westbury is only valid via map CE, which doesn't link Chippenham to the TransWilts.

And what about a Chippenham to Bath ticket - am I allowed to travel via Trowbridge?

Map MW, can go via Westbury Group (which includes Trowbridge).  Changing at Westbury itself would not be permitted as you double back through Trowbridge.  However, I believe this whole route falls foul of the Fare Check Rule as Chippenham to Trowbridge is more expensive than Chippenham to Bath Spa.

[JayMac]

Both Chippenham and Bath Spa are Routeing Points, therefore the 'fares check rule' doesn't apply. So any mapped route that doesn't double back through a station is permitted. So, yes you can travel from Chippenham to Bath Spa via Trowbridge (but not Westbury) according to the Routeing Guide.

Booking engines concur and allow you to purchase a Chippenham to Bath Spa via Trowbridge fare.

So whether by accident or design, grahame, you've discovered a cheaper way to travel between Chippenham and Trowbridge on those two a day TransWilts trains!

Example for a single journey on the early morning service: Buy the Chippenham to Bath Spa Anytime Day Single (SDS) at ^5.20 and travel short to Trowbridge. A Saving of ^1.20 over the Chippenham to Trowbridge SDS.


Something else of relevance to fares on the TransWilts I discovered whilst investigating the above:

From the Easements section of The Rail Routeing Guide:

Customers travelling from Dilton Marsh to Westbury and beyond may doubleback via Warminster. This easement applies in both directions.

An easement that offers fares savings for many journeys. Travelling from Bath Spa to Warminster? The Anytime Day Single (SDS) is ^8.10, but because of this easement you only need purchase an SDS to Dilton Marsh for ^6.60 and 'travel short' to Warminster.

[grahame]

There are some darned funny things around the Chippenham - Bath - Trowbridge triangle!   

When Bath -> Bristol is bustituted, the Portsmouth Harbour service runs to Swindon instead, change there for Newport. and for Bristol via Parkway.  So is that a higher fare than via Bath too?

The Dilton Marsh easement is an interesting one - and a potentially good and useful one for Dilton Marsh passengers. Does it apply the other way - i.e. can Dilton Marsh to Salisbury passengers change at Westbury?

I'm not - with these questions - looking to find just how low a fare I can find, by the way - I'm more interested in what ticket(s) someone would need to buy for the journeys if they were doing the Bristol - Westbury journey via Chippenham, and going back via B-o-A - making it simple for people who don't use rail very much.  In pence per mile terms, most of the fares are sensible and I would rather that the rail industry got a fair rate

[JayMac]

I did look to see if there was an easement allowing journeys to/from Dilton Marsh to double back at Westbury, but sadly not.

I agree about the fares in this area being generally okay in terms of pence-per-mile, but I will always look for the cheapest option both for myself and when I advise others. Yes, the rail industry deserves a fair rate for providing the service but the industry gets little sympathy from me (with regard to fares) when it has such an arcane, complex system.

If I can play that system (whilst keeping to the rules, of course) to my advantage, I will. It's my money and I'll only hand over the minimum allowed for me to make a particular journey. I'll continue to advise thus as well. But it is only advice. Anyone is free to decide whether to act on it.

I recently advised my sister of the cheapest way to make a journey which would've involved her buying three return tickets, splitting twice, instead of one through ticket. She was too embarrassed to ask for those tickets at her local station and instead bought the through ticket. My advice, had she taken it, would have saved her over ^30.

All that said, I'd like to see a simpler system. Quite how that is brought about though, I know not. Beyond my expertise. I'm still learning how to get the best value out of the current system. If it's changed, I'll have to start over!

[Brucey]

Both Chippenham and Bath Spa are Routeing Points, therefore the 'fares check rule' doesn't apply.

I read the instructions every time I use the routeing guide, but still can't quite get to grips with it!  I do wonder if anyone in the rail industry (other than ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here)/RSP) actually uses the guide or whether the old mantra of "any reasonable route" still prevails?

[grahame]

Brucey, Bignosemac ... many thanks.

I'm looking for advise I can give to people like the sister - where the customers can ask for a simple fare and not be frightened, where the staff members on the train will know that it's valid without question, and which can be printed on leaflets working together with the rail industry to help encourage people to use the train, with fares they are happy for everyone to use. So - care with lots of multi-ticketing options and things that ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) try not to publicise.

For Bristol / Bath to Westbury and beyond, I rather like the Heart of Wessex Day Ranger for journeys that are at the weekend and are going to involve somewhere Weymouthwards!

[eightf48544]

That's a fantastic thought Grahame I wish you luck in your ambition.

I read the instructions every time I use the routeing guide, but still can't quite get to grips with it!  I do wonder if anyone in the rail industry (other than ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here)/RSP) actually uses the guide or whether the old mantra of "any reasonable route" still prevails?

However, as Brucey says says there is actualy no-one in the rail industry and I would include ATOC/RSP that really understands the routing guide/fares manual.

Short of cloning bignosemac and putting him on every train I can't think how the knot can be untied so that everyone travels for a fair price for the journey they want to make, without having to worry about splitting, doubling back, travelling on the third Tuesday of the month unless it's a leap year.

The trouble is the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) seem to want to join the O'Leary school of fare setting. Completely forgetting that  a train is not like a plane which usually does a one destination flight with a set number of seats. So once full tough you don't get that flight.

Whereas a train usuually has multiple stops,  and except for a few peak services no real capacity contraints and with connections a very large number of  journey posibilities.

Setting a maximum pence per mile for anytime tickets, would help with part of the splittng problem. However i can't see a full solution  unless any cheaper fares are also bought into line and many of the numerous restrictions on them are either reduced and/or standardised and maybe making any cheaper fares have a similar fixed rate per mile.   


If you can crack it for the Trans Wilts maybe it can be applied elsewhere.  Good luck.

[JayMac]

Short of cloning bignosemac....

 

Good gosh, no. One of me trundling around the network making life difficult interesting for TMs^‡(resolve), Conductors, gateline staff, etc, is enough.

 

[grahame]

That's a fantastic thought Grahame I wish you luck in your ambition.

....

If you can crack it for the Trans Wilts maybe it can be applied elsewhere.  Good luck.

I think we can quote fares and tickets for people to ask for on specific journeys.  A day out.... from xxx, yyy and zzz to  aaa and bbb, on the train at 0x:yz, returning on the train at 1a:bc.  A very limited objective.   I'm advised that to try to actually sort out the fares mess as a whole isn't on the agenda.

[grahame]

As a follow up thought /more general comment here that leads us in a different direction

Whatever the fares are, with "Cap and Collar" only a small proportion of the fares that we pay go to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) as far as the accountants are concerned.   That a serious issue that hampers the economics of service enhancement.   Let's say (for example) that an enhanced service is proposed that brings in an extra 100k per annum from a service on a line - enough to run a train (commercially) offpeak that's otherwise idle from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. ... then FGW only get to keep about a quarter of that - with the other 75% going to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) as (in effect) a penalty / fine against FGW for not meeting franchise target levels elsewhere.

In effect, this system could end up supressing sensible enhancements and leave trains that would be used sitting idle in sidings, with the income generated by rail reduced.   If I say "spend 80k to get 100k" to a commercial outfit, they might.  If I say "spend 80k to get 25k", their commercial response would be .... [expletive deleted]