High Speed Service from Kent - effect on fares etc

[whole diary]

[Btline]

Edit by Graham E  This thread has been split off from
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4903.0
which concerns the station of Perranwell (Falmouth line) where there is local disquiet because it has been turned into a request stop for some trains, and because some other trains in the greatly increased new Falmouth branch service won't stop at all.


Don't worry, D/M, there are already complaints about the SE HSS^▸ (High Speed Services)!

1. The prices - +35 % - enough said given that Kent commuters pay through the nose already!

2. Most Kent commuters work in the City, by the time they've walked to the Tube from St Pancras and travelled to the City, the time difference will be negligible.

3. I expect most Kent commuters don't want to use the overcrowded Tube every day, nor will they want a change.

4. There are going to be CUTS in the SE Mainline service - forcing people onto the HSS and pay the sky high prices.

[Timmer]

2. Most Kent commuters work in the City, by the time they've walked to the Tube from St Pancras and travelled to the City, the time difference will be negligible.

Speaking from experience it is quite a walk from the St Pancras domestic services part of the station to the KX/St Pancras tube station.

[caliwag]

Re the walk from St P domestic to the tube...the link was proposed, and indeed the escalators at the domestic entrance are installed but the subsurface direct link to the proposed Northern ticket hall to the East of KX was postponed by the government. I assume work will restart soon!
The same short-sightedness prevailed at Ashford International which was built, unbelievably, third rail. Only to have the canopies ripped apart to install OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") with additional clearances...to say nothing of the re-raising of the then recently raised road bridge at the North end...unbelievable!

[paul7575]

Re the walk from St P domestic to the tube...the link was proposed, and indeed the escalators at the domestic entrance are installed but the subsurface direct link to the proposed Northern ticket hall to the East of KX was postponed by the government. I assume work will restart soon!

Work restarted ages ago, and will be completed late this year in time for the full Kent domestic service...

Paul

[paul7575]

Re the walk from St P domestic to the tube...the link was proposed, and indeed the escalators at the domestic entrance are installed but the subsurface direct link to the proposed Northern ticket hall to the East of KX was postponed by the government. I assume work will restart soon!

Work restarted ages ago, and will be completed late this year in time for the full Kent domestic service...

Paul

and the relevence to Perranwell is???

Thread divergence. About a week ago...

Paul

[JayMac]

Don't worry, D/M, there are already complaints about the SE HSS^▸ (High Speed Services)!

1. The prices - +35 % - enough said given that Kent commuters pay through the nose already!

2. Most Kent commuters work in the City, by the time they've walked to the Tube from St Pancras and travelled to the City, the time difference will be negligible.

3. I expect most Kent commuters don't want to use the overcrowded Tube every day, nor will they want a change.

4. There are going to be CUTS in the SE Mainline service - forcing people onto the HSS and pay the sky high prices.

Are these attributable facts or opinion?

No 1, I can go with.
No 2, "Most Kent commuters work in The City". My reading of 'most' would be more than 50%. Really? More city types than service industry employees for example? Maybe on the commute from leafy Surrey.....
No 3, Have you seen or conducted a survey of Kent commuters? Do 'most' Kent commuters all work within walking distance of a National Rail station that suits their commute? 'expect' is the giveaway word here. I suspect most Kent commuters already have an onward TfL^» (Transport for London - about) or National rail journey requiring a change.
No 4, Maybe....but I would suspect that the business plan will be for HSS to complement rather than replace services. Lets wait for the final Dec 09 timetable. Excluding the 150 HSS services in the draft timetable, there is a planned increase of approx. 70 weekday services across the Southeastern network.

I do agree that a +35% premium is way too much for such a service. more so in the current economic climate. If loadings are poor I think this will be looked at again.

And my response is purely opinion. With the odd attributable fact. http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/index.php/news/news_items/view/85

[paul7575]

Don't worry, D/M, there are already complaints about the SE HSS^▸ (High Speed Services)!

1. The prices - +35 % - enough said given that Kent commuters pay through the nose already!

Are these attributable facts or opinion?

No 1, I can go with.
I do agree that a +35% premium is way too much for such a service. more so in the current economic climate. If loadings are poor I think this will be looked at again.

Just concentrating on the '35% premium' for a moment. NO existing fares can rise by 35%, because the 35% only applies to Ebbsfleet as an origin or destination, and this is a new station. This and only this new fare has a premium of 35% over the existing Gravesend fare, however other existing fares from North Kent that join HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) at Ebbsfleet can only rise by a maximum of 30% of the existing Gravesend - London fare.
Existing fares from the south east via Ashford can only rise by a maximum of 20% of the existing Ashford - London fare

In both these cases the fares from further away from the HS1 connection will have a lower overall percentage increase, as the preiums are effectively 'lump sums'. Margate via North Kent and HS1 rises by about 10% for instance. In summary because the rise only applies to the HS1 leg - and that is a less significant chunk of longer journeys.

'35% all round' is plain and simple exaggeration, based on people repeating what the media have trotted out, including certain rail magazines, who seem to have either failed to establish or have vastly over simplified the facts as published over 2 years ago in search of the snappy headline of 35%.

[Maybe this thread does need splitting now Grahame...]

Paul

[grahame]

[Maybe this thread does need splitting now Grahame...]

Paul

I agree!

Topic split ... Perranwell Discussion is now at
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4903.0

[Btline]

But you're missing the point.

A lot of people will live in Kent because they can catch a train from their local station to London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink or Cannon Street. Ditto with "leafy Surrey" as you can use "The Drain" (aka Waterloo and City line) to get to The City.

Overall, there will be a net increase in trains. But the reason behind the anger is that services to the aforementioned termini are to be reduced on many lines forcing people to use the HSS^▸ (High Speed Services), and the higher fares that are brought with it.

[devon_metro]

They aren't being forced to do anything.

[RailCornwall]

Bad move this, the fares on commuter services that use HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) lines in Europe aren't inflated. There might be a valid excuse to operate such a policy if a true Inter City HS service ever gets provided in this country, and only then if there's a full time 'Classic' service, following a roughly similar route, available as a backup.

Seems to me to be nothing short of short termism.

[JayMac]

Don't worry, D/M, there are already complaints about the SE HSS^▸ (High Speed Services)!

1. The prices - +35 % - enough said given that Kent commuters pay through the nose already!

Are these attributable facts or opinion?

No 1, I can go with.
I do agree that a +35% premium is way too much for such a service. more so in the current economic climate. If loadings are poor I think this will be looked at again.

Just concentrating on the '35% premium' for a moment. NO existing fares can rise by 35%, because the 35% only applies to Ebbsfleet as an origin or destination, and this is a new station. This and only this new fare has a premium of 35% over the existing Gravesend fare, however other existing fares from North Kent that join HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) at Ebbsfleet can only rise by a maximum of 30% of the existing Gravesend - London fare.
Existing fares from the south east via Ashford can only rise by a maximum of 20% of the existing Ashford - London fare

In both these cases the fares from further away from the HS1 connection will have a lower overall percentage increase, as the preiums are effectively 'lump sums'. Margate via North Kent and HS1 rises by about 10% for instance. In summary because the rise only applies to the HS1 leg - and that is a less significant chunk of longer journeys.

'35% all round' is plain and simple exaggeration, based on people repeating what the media have trotted out, including certain rail magazines, who seem to have either failed to establish or have vastly over simplified the facts as published over 2 years ago in search of the snappy headline of 35%.

[Maybe this thread does need splitting now Grahame...]

Paul

My bad, I took Btline's use of +35% as a given. Despite what I said about facts v opinion, I neglected to check this one more thouroughly.

[JayMac]

But you're missing the point.

A lot of people will live in Kent because they can catch a train from their local station to London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink or Cannon Street. Ditto with "leafy Surrey" as you can use "The Drain" (aka Waterloo and City line) to get to The City.

Overall, there will be a net increase in trains. But the reason behind the anger is that services to the aforementioned termini are to be reduced on many lines forcing people to use the HSS^▸ (High Speed Services), and the higher fares that are brought with it.

And YOU are missing my point.

I was questioning the assertion you made in point 2 that most Kent commuters work in City. And working in the City surely now encompasses more than just the traditional 'square mile'. I agree that there will be a reduction of approx 30 weekday services on the SE Mainline, but I think the effect on commuters will be negligible. The SE Mainline is more an inter-urban type of route than a commuter route. There are, according to the draft timetable, going to be approx 100 more services on the SE Metro routes which will greatly benefit commuters. A few people at the extremities of the SE network may be inconvenienced by the loss of a particular train, but as a whole I think more people will benefit.

And I echo devon_metro. Nobody is forced to do anything.

[Btline]

Just concentrating on the '35% premium' for a moment. NO existing fares can rise by 35%

But the HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) fares don't exist now!

The NEW fares for HS1 are expected to be 35% dearer.

And as for "nobody is being forced" - take a look at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8036851.stm

Maidstone's fast services into the City - axed.

And for northern Kent, the journey time savings will be modest, as the Javelins travel over less of HS1.

Fair enough that Londoners will have more services - but lots of Kent towns are loosing theirs.

[devon_metro]

You proved nothing. Nobody is forcing them to get the train to work?