OK, I kinda see where you are coming from but I don't agree. I've given my interpretation of the T&Cs and NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) and they concur with those more expert in the interpretation of fares rules on other forums. There is, admittedly, a lot of hypothesis at work as there have been no legal challenges to the various ambiguities in our crackpot fares system.

Until there is, passengers have to rely on goodwill, TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) staff can continue to make rules up, Passenger Focus won't grow a set of b***s and ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) can continue to bury their heads up their ....... er, in the sand.

Ah... now that's split advances. A whole different ball game/kettle of fish/minefield! I'm arguing my corner on changing an advance to walk-up splits. However, still one journey as defined in the NRCoC, which doesn't exclude Advances from para. 19 "Using a combination of tickets".


Well it actually says 'ticket(s)' and it doesn't specify whether this refers to the ticket(s) you are giving up or the ticket(s) you are receiving. With the split(s) you are getting one ticket with your origin and another with your destination. The split destination(s)/origin(s) are irrelevant. Your entire journey's origin and destination remain the same.

OK amiddl, here's the cheapest option I've found using split tickets. These prices are correct as at 2110 30/07. 16-25 Railcard prices in brackets. All are advance purchase singles and I have given ample time to cross London - time to grab lunch on the outbound and dinner on the return. (Or time to absorb delays!)

The Kings Cross - Leuchars prices include an online discount and are only available from East Coast's website. I suggest buying all the tickets from there in one transaction.

OUT 12th October
d0855 Plymouth - a1223 Paddington* ^16.00 (^10.55)
d1400 Kings Cross - a1938 Leuchars  ^24.90 (^16.45)

RTN 14th October
d1120 Leuchars - a1657 Kings Cross   ^18.70 (^12.35)
d1945 Paddington* - a2317 Plymouth ^16.00 (^10.55)

TOTAL: ^75.60 (^49.90)

*When purchasing specify Zone U1 London in the origin/destination box to include a cross London transfer by tube. The prices quoted include the transfer.

As you can see there is plenty of time to make the cross London journeys, in fact maybe too much on the return journey but thats the cheapest option. If you'd prefer to get back to Plymouth earlier then I can look at alternatives, just PM me.

---

The Bargain Berths on the Caledonian Sleeper are currently ^29.00ea on the 12th from Euston - Leuchars and ^39.00ea on the return on the 13th. As this includes your accomodation then it will be a cheaper option than stopping overnight on the 13th in Leuchars. Won't be as comfy as a B&B or Hotel though, but I find a glass or three of red wine or a wee dram from the buffet helps me get to the land of nod! Be aware these Bargain Berths sell out very quicky so if you take this option then get in there quick!

Hope this helps

Mac

(Deep breath....count to 10)

Nibat, I'll say it again. Changing an Advance to split walk-up tickets is allowed under the terms of of the T&Cs of Advance Purchase and the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage).

You are making one journey with split tickets, not two, or three, or seventy-six. You do not have to disembark at your split points and catch another train. Your split point(s) are not your destination. As long as you satisfy, "The origin, destination and Train Company or route shown on the ticket(s) must remain the same," pay the ^10 Administration fee and catch a service that calls at your split point(s) then the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) should not refuse to sell you the split ticket.

If they (or anyone else) is going to tell you it's not allowed, then they need to provide you with details of a relevant term or condition. Otherwise the current NRCoC prevail.

(....and relax)

Driver still has to do a lamp check at each end though.

Ok Ollie. But where does it say in the ADV ticket T&Cs or NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) that you may not change to split walk-ups if you decide to change your departure time? NRCoC says:


Nothing in those 'relevant conditions' in NRCoC that precludes changing an ADV to split walk ups. And nothing in the ADV T&Cs as published by all TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) that preclude it either. Therefore it's allowed. You are completing one journey and your destination is not your split point, therefore the origin and destination condition is satisfied.

Oh, I'm not a lawyer, but it seems pretty clear to me 

If there's a T&C out there that does preclude it, I haven't found it.

Just left HFD^» (Hereford - next trains) 93  mins down. Still some pretty optimistic timings in 'Live Departures'. And it's got to pass down services at suitable locations as well.

Broken down train between Hereford and Great Malvern apparently.

You are not purchasing two journeys. You are purchasing two tickets to complete one journey. And the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) cover this and allow it. So you should be able to change an ADV to walk-up split tickets as long as origin and final destination remain the same.

Tis annoying when things like that hsppen.

There is however nothing in the T&Cs that says you cannot change an ADV to a split ticket. Beinng told repeatedly this isn't allowed doesn't make it true.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage)) state that you can buy multiple tickets to make one journey.


My emphasis in bold.

There is nothing in the T&Cs for advance tickets that says you cannot replace your ADV with split tickets. National Rail Enquiries says


Again, my emphasis. The T&Cs even make reference to the possibility of more than one ticket. If the next suitable fare happens to be a split ticket requested by the customer (which TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are obliged to sell), then they should sell it to you.

I suggest you email a complaint to CrossCountry Customer Services pointing out the duff information you were given.

Finally, I should point out that is against the NRCoC to offer a ticket to another person.


It's probably not acceptable to do so on this forum either.

Pot luck. Day of the week and time of the year are important factors. A Tuesday in February you might stand a chance of getting a seat in the Pullman Restaurant on the 1803. Same goes for the 1903. Friday nights would be unlikely at any time of the year.

Inconvenient, but better that the fail-safe protects the line.

amiddl. I'm still waiting for the Advances from London to Plymouth on the 14th October to be come available. Should have an answer in the next cople of days.

In the meantime I've been looking into the potential pitfalls of using split advances if you are delayed on one service, and subsequently miss the 2nd service.

This thread on RailUK Forums covers the issue pretty well with some good advice as well as a robust argument about the legal position. What it appears to boil down to is TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) offering good customer service as long as you adhere to minimum connection times, but their is a very small risk of a staff member playing hard ball and refusing to endorse travel on a later service. No anecdotal evidence that this has ever happened though.

Ah. Good spot W_P. One of the restriction changes in Jan 2010 (NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) 05) that I missed. Hadn't checked, yet luckily got away with a couple of journeys from New Street on the 1730 CrossCountry earlier in the year. I know ignorance is no defence.......

Because of your advice, I went looking for alternatives to Birmingham New Street from Bromsgrove to get around the evening restrictions on the CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) and my second choice of Smethwick Galton Bridge came up trumps. CDR is ^4.80, you can travel short to/from New Street and no restriction in the evening. Another 20p saved. Yay!!!!

So now.....

Bristol - Bromsgrove CDR ^10.60
Bromsgrove - Smethwick GB^▸ (Great Britain) CDR ^4.80
Total: ^15.40

..... with return still possible on the 1730 or 1830 CrossCountry services to Cheltenham.

And if you need or want to arrive in Brum before 0900 on a day return from Bristol then you can split at Cheltenham and Bromsgrove and catch the 0721 or 0757 CrossCountry from Cheltenham. Only 20 minutes longer than the through trains.....

Bristol - Cheltenham SDR ^13.40
Cheltenham - Bromsgrove SDR ^9.60
Bromsgrove - Birmingham NS SDR ^5.80
Total: ^28.80

..... and a massive saving on the through fare if you asked at Temple Meads for a day return from Bristol to Birmingham to arrive before 0900. You'd be sold a SOR at ^80!!

I often use the split point of Bromsgrove for a Bristol-Brum day return. I also take the 0841 from BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) and connect onto the 1023 from WOF-BHM. It's actually 6 minutes for the change - still annoying if the incoming FGW^▸ (First Great Western) is delayed. Hour wait for the next train to Bromsgrove and no delay compo as the connection is 1 minute shy of the official connection time. Only happened once in the past year that I missed the 1023 to Brum via Bromsgrove. Worse places to kill an hour than Worcester though.

Advantage of splitting the Off Peak Day Return (CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))) at Bromsgrove rather than Worcester, besides price, is that you can return from Brum on the 1730 or 1830 CrossCountry Cardiff bound services and change at Cheltenham.

Split your BRI-BHM CDR at Cheltenham and you are on a CrossCountry priced CDR from Cheltenham meaning no return between 1530-1815.

I just knew as soon as I mentioned 'blues and twos' someone would post a link to that classic Inter-City advert!